As requested here: dreamscarredpress.com/...rt=20.html
I have put together a 0-level power, or Talent, system. As an excerpt:

Quote::

Talents are 0-level psionic powers. When a manifester (such as a psion, wilder, or psychic warrior) learns a 1st level psionic power, he also automatically learns the talent associated with that power. If the manifester already knows that talent, the manifester may instead select any other talent from his class’s talent list to learn. Focus Talent: A manifester may manifest any talent that he knows without paying power points as long as he holds psionic focus, but can only maintain one such ‘focus talent’ manifestation at a time; manifesting another talent without paying power points in this manner causes the original ‘focus talent’ to immediately expire. Talents manifested as focus talents cannot be augmented. A manifester may also manifest talents normally by paying power points, regardless of whether psionic focus is held; these do not cause any active focus talent to lapse and may be augmented if the power description indicates such. (Please remove all previous “expend focus” augment rules for powers previously mentioned in the alpha documentation)

I had to make some judgment calls, foremost of which: which powers were weak enough to be Talents, and which should remain 1st level powers? One immediate guideline I used was the alpha list of powers; if a power had the 'expend focus to manifest for free' augment, I assumed its base level was weak enough to qualify it for a Talent. Another guideline I used were 0-level powers from Sorc/Wiz and Cleric spell lists.

For some of the powers that were powerful enough to remain 1st level powers, I had to create a weaker 0-level variant; for example, Vigor (which grants 5 temporary hit points) was given the weaker variant Vim (which grants a single temporary hit point, comparable but not identical to Virtue). Virtue lasts for 1 minute but can be used upon multiple targets (so a cleric could buff up multiple allies before a fight), hence why it needed a flat 1 minute time limit; Vim only affects the user, so keeping the same duration as Vigor (1 minute/level) seemed appropriate... but that's a judgment call on my part. Certainly, I welcome any and all feedback, questions, etc. regarding this.

I will say this, though... I now have a lot more respect for the guys who put together the original alpha docs. It's surprisingly harder and more time-consuming than it looks.

Heh. Nice idea, but I went with a much simpler solution for my PF psionics.


Psions and psychic warriors gain three 0-level talents at 1st-level, which can be used for a total of 3 + manifester level uses per day and are always caster-level 1 only. These do not cost anything to cast, may not be augmented in any way and may be used in addition to their normal powers per day. If the manifester wishes to use them as anything other than caster-level 1 talents, they must select them as 1st-level powers from their normal power pool.

Psion (Kineticist): Detect Psionics, Far Hand, My Light (1 minute)
Psion (Nomad): Detect Psionics, Catfall, Float
Psion (Seer): Detect Psionics, Defensive Precognition (1 round), Know Direction & Location
Psion (Shaper): Detect Psionics, Psionic Grease, Psionic Minor Creation (1 minute)
Psion (Telepath): Detect Psionics, Distract (1 round), Missive (5 words)
Psychic Warrior: Detect Psionics, Metaphysical Weapon (1 round), Vigour (1 round)

I considered making talents independent from powers known, freely selectable regardless of what 1st level powers you have... but it just didn't make sense.

Wizards have the advantage of being able to KNOW any spell.
Sorcerers have the advantage of being able to spam their known spells; flexibility within a certain range, but restricted by known spells.
Psions have the advantage of being able to fine-tune exactly how much power they pour into a single power, but are even more restricted by known powers.

In other words, a psion should be able to choose exactly how many power points to spend on a power, from 0 to manifester level. That's why the talents are tied to powers known; the talents represent what you'd get if you were to use 0 power points when manifesting the 1st level power.

A sorcerer could choose offensive spells like Magic Missile and Shocking Grasp for 1st level spells, and then choose defensive or utility spells like Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mage Hand, and Resistance. Or, he could choose utility 1st level spells such as Identify and Detect Secret Doors, and then spend his 0-level spell slots on Acid Splash, Daze, Flare, and Disrupt Undead. In other words, he really is starting out with 6 spells known, and those spells can be completely different, fulfilling different roles.

A psion, by contrast, isn't supposed to know a lot of DIFFERENT powers; that's arguably one of the problems with psionics, that there are too many powers. Instead, the psion is supposed to know relatively few powers, but each power is supposed to be more flexible. A wizard needs to know a bajillion and one variations of your basic elemental nuke: Lesser Fire Orb, Flaming Sphere, Fireball, Fire Orb, Delayed Blast Fireball, etc., etc. Add in Lesser Lightning Orb, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Orb, Chain Lightning, etc., etc. A psion? "Energy Ray." No Light, Light, Darkness, Deeper Darkness, Daylight, etc... vs. "Control Light."

So, that's why I tied them to powers known as I did. Make the powers more flexible, without really giving the psion tons more DIFFERENT powers. And, if a psion takes multiple similar powers with overlapping talents, they gain access to other talents to compensate; for example, if a psion already knows Inertial Armor and he takes Force Shield, it's almost like the Force Shield is an augment of the Inertial Armor (since they're so similar), so it's like he gains an augment to a known power and a 0-level knowledge of another power (say, Telepathic Lash), rather than gaining complete knowledge of a 1st level power (such as Mind Thrust). If the psion were to then take Mind Thrust... well, since he already knew Telepathic Lash, he gets to learn a different talent there, too; so it would be like his knowledge of the 0-level power 'evolved' into a full 1st level understanding, and he also got started with a 0-level understanding of yet another power. It makes it a lot more organic in that sense, almost like its own small power chain.

Plus, the proposed system automatically balances out Psions, Wilders, and PsyWars with respect to number of talents known; Psions know more powers than PsyWars, so they proportionately have more talents.

I'm still digesting this, but I like it. It seems simple enough, is really flexible, and I don't see anything game-breaking about it. It also does seem to fit better with the psionic theme than the set number of spells known by spellcasters. I like.

(Sorry, I wish I had something more constructive to say, but i thought it deserved a response at least.)

Well, thank you for the response. While arguably "no news is good news", it's nice to hear that you don't see anything wrong with it, and especially nice that you agree that the psionic theme is being upheld. Making it too similar to sorc/wiz cantrips was something I wanted to avoid.

Definitely awesome, but we need more than this to choose from.

Psion:
Metacreativity (Int)
Acid Splash. You deal 1d3 points of acid damage to one foe.
Astral Spider. Creates an astral spider to fetch items for you.
Chilling Mist. You deal 1d3 points of cold damage to creatures or objects in a 5-foot area.
Deafening Burst. You deal 1 point of sonic damage to one foe.
Ectoplasmic Repair. You mend small tears or breaks in objects.
Ectoplasmic Strand. You create a ropelike strand of ectoplasm.
Electric Jolt. You do 1d3 points of electricity damage to one target.

Psychokinesis (Con)
Bind/Loosen. You make it easier or harder to loosen ropes, open doors, and so on.
Open/Close. You can open or close some objects, such as doors or containers, from a distance.

Clairsentience (Wis)
Chrono Sense. A mental hourglass helps you to keep track of the passage of time.
Intuition. You call upon your memories to help with a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Xenoscope. You assess the health of a single target.

Psychometabolism (Str)
Dermal Alteration. You change the color of your skin, length of your hair, and so on.
Facial Alteration. You manipulate your facial muscles.
Third Eye. You create a third eye that assists with ranged attacks and powers.
Webbing. Webbing appears between your fingers, granting you +8 bonus on the Swim checks.

Telepathy (Cha)
Alter Smell/Taste. You alter the taste or smell of one target momentarily.

Psychoportation (Dex)
Hover Field. Small crystal objects such as your psicrystal hover within 3 feet of you.
Volitation. You float 2 inches above the ground.


Psychic Warrior:
Bind/Loosen. You make it easier or harder to loosen ropes, open doors, and so on. (Con)
Ectoplasmic Repair. You mend small tears or breaks in objects. (Int)
Ectoplasmic Strand. You create a ropelike strand of ectoplasm. (Int)
Intuition. You call upon your memories to help with a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. (Wis)
Open/Close. You can open or close some objects, such as doors or containers, from a distance. (Con)
Third Eye. You create a third eye that assists with ranged attacks and powers. (Str)
Volitation. You float 2 inches above the ground. (Dex)
Webbing. Webbing appears between your fingers, granting you +8 bonus on the Swim checks. (Str)

Acid Splash. You deal 1d3 points of acid damage to one foe.
Chilling Mist. You deal 1d3 points of cold damage to creatures or objects in a 5-foot area.
Deafening Burst. You deal 1 point of sonic damage to one foe.
Electric Jolt. You do 1d3 points of electricity damage to one target.

= Energy Splash

Astral Spider. Creates an astral spider to fetch items for you.

- I did consider making an Astral Servant variant of Unseen Servant, but Unseen Servant is a 1st level spell. Just use Astral Construct.

Edit: Hmmm. But Astral Construct would be Small, not Tiny etc... Hmmm. If it can ONLY fetch things for you, then it is rather limited, but part of the question then becomes, "Why can it go out and come back and only fetch things? Why can't it scout around, set off traps, etc.?"... and also makes animated psicrystals a little less appealing. Perhaps adjust Astral Construct to be able to create Tiny figures as well as Small?

Ectoplasmic Repair. You mend small tears or breaks in objects.

- That could be done perhaps, as a psionic version of Mending. Alternately, allow Reconstruction to repair objects other than constructs.

Ectoplasmic Strand. You create a ropelike strand of ectoplasm.

- if you just need a rope, Ectoplasmic Trinket does the trick. If you want this for some sort of combat tactic or the like, probably better made as a higher-level power.

Bind/Loosen. You make it easier or harder to loosen ropes, open doors, and so on.

= Ectoplasmic Sheen/Entangling Ectoplasm. Use Ectoplasmic Sheen on what you're trying to 'grease', and Entangling Ectoplasm on someone you're trying to 'hold'. Maybe an augment to allow Entangling Ectoplasm affect a door like Hold Portal.

Open/Close. You can open or close some objects, such as doors or containers, from a distance.

= Far Hand (augmented as needed). Remember, while a wizard will know a bajillion and one specific tricks, a psion is more likely to have a general understanding of how to do something, and then apply more or less power to it as needed. What is opening/closing a door? It's an application of telekinesis.

Chrono Sense. A mental hourglass helps you to keep track of the passage of time.

- while arguably a valid entry, this will probably only come up once or twice in a psion's entire life, if that. If you really need to use this, just ask your DM if you can use an Autohypnosis check to pull it off. Most spellcasters are able to keep track of their spells with finer accuracy than the 6-second mark without needing a single roll, after all.

Intuition. You call upon your memories to help with a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.

= Precognition fills this closely enough, IMO. Besides, we have three other 1st level Clairsentience powers that overlap closely as-is.

Xenoscope. You assess the health of a single target.

- arguably a valid Talent when applied to allies... possibly overpowered when applied to enemies, unless Saves etc. are allowed.

Dermal Alteration. You change the color of your skin, length of your hair, and so on.
Facial Alteration. You manipulate your facial muscles.

- depending on the amount of alteration allowed (is this just a minor bonus to Disguise checks, or a complete Disguise Self replacement?), could either be a Talent (a perfect match for Chameleon, actually) or its own 1st-level power.

Third Eye. You create a third eye that assists with ranged attacks and powers.

- personally, I feel that this would be better served as a higher-level power, with a significant bonus attached to it (such as the ability to reduce or negate the penalties for Concealment, for example).

Webbing. Webbing appears between your fingers, granting you +8 bonus on the Swim checks.

= Float, essentially. If you wish, just request an additional Material display from your DM (ectoplasmic webbing).

Alter Smell/Taste. You alter the taste or smell of one target momentarily.

- Hmmm. Extremely limited; the few practical uses I can think of are to make something bad (such as poison or spoiled food) taste good, to make something good taste bad (as a prank), or to mess up a creature's Blindsense or Scent abilities (which should probably be outside of the range of a Talent). My recommendation would be to make this an augment of Sense Link, or perhaps you could RP it as an application of Attraction and/or Aversion.

Hover Field. Small crystal objects such as your psicrystal hover within 3 feet of you.

- Ah, Hover Field. I missed that power. Practical use includes letting you 'drop' a dorje without actually losing it... but then again, the same argument could be made for dorjes leashed to your wrist. So silly. Still, very nice for RP purposes, gives a nice psion-y feel to be able to keep your crystals levitating around you. Depending on how useful it actually is, it might qualify as a full power in its own right. Hmmm. Still a fun ability, even if relatively useless aside from quick-swapping items.

Volitation. You float 2 inches above the ground.

- While I love the RP aspect of this (Elocater <3), statistically this could be a headache. Much like Hover Field, it's either useless (no utility at all other than RP), or it's too powerful for a Talent. Here's the line: if a pit falls under your character, do you take full falling damage? (If not, it should be an application of Catfall, which is a 1st level power) If your character steps into a square with a tripwire or pressure panel, does the trap go off? (If not, it's definitely more powerful than a Talent, stepping on the toes of Scorn Earth) If walking through snow or other terrain that leaves tracks, does your character leave tracks as normal? (If not... actually, ARE there any Pass without Trace psionic powers? I'd have to double-check, come to think of it)

Aaaanyways... to reiterate an earlier point: psions don't know a ton of powers. They actually don't NEED a massive list of specialized powers like wizards need specialized spells. The fewer powers, the better, as long as you don't make any one power too overreaching.

Astral Servant (Astral Spider), Ectoplasmic Repair, Xenoscope, and Dermal (Facial) Alteration definitely look promising, however.

I'm going to reiterate a few points I've made on the subject of 0th level powers, since it keeps coming up.

Original Thread

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

First of all, we are not going to be introducing 0 level powers, but we are keeping these things in mind. 3 reasons: time, complexity, and backwards compatibility. It's not really as simple as it may seem, because of all the farther-reaching rules ramifications of changing the system like that. 0-level spell equivalents, such as Detect Psionics, received an expend focus augmentation to remove their power point cost. ..... Dabbler's post actually hits the nail on the head about unforeseen side effects of mechanics changes like this. Should the Wilder also get Talents? The Sorcerer does get 0th level spells. If the Wilder gets Talents, then that means he can manifest surged powers an infinite number of times per day. Most of the powers in question aren't really problem powers, but... the updated Daze power (Telepathic Lash) that can be manifested for free, using surges for augmentation, might be a problem. Is it a problem? I don't know - because figuring that out requires a fair bit of time. But this then also begs the other question - should Psychic Warriors also get Talents? And if so, do they use the same list, or do they get a different list? And this all then has to go through the ringer of checking it at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels (that's what I would normally suggest to figure out balance concerns). Comparing it to what the other classes can do at the same level, and seeing if there's parity, or if one or the other is significantly better or worse. My point isn't to throw out your idea here - it's just to point out what needs to be factored in to a change like Talents / 0-level powers before it can be fully vetted for inclusion.

My short answer is that, while I very much appreciate the work being put into this topic and the ideas presented, Andreas, Phil, and I are currently spending the majority of our time focusing on the rest of the psionics system to be updated to Pathfinder.

While I appreciate the draw of 0th level powers, it is low on our priority for inclusion in our core psionic book and something we consider more likely to be released in a supplemental book, like the updated and revised Untapped Potential for PFRPG. The discipline powers that we're working on for psions, and focus-based augments for the less-powerful 1st level powers, are examples of easier-to-test solutions for now.

I was under the impression "if someone wants to in their own time try to come up with a system that'd work with minimal to no balance issues... I'd be open to reviewing it."

I fail to see any balance issues; as stated in the PDF, Talents being manifested for free cannot be Augmented (so Wild Surge isn't a factor unless you are willing to pay full power point cost). PsyWars do get Talents (the same number of Talents as 1st level powers). Wilders do get Talents (the same number of Talents as 1st level powers). Is there another point of concern I'm missing or failing to address?

@Syonique: Absolutely, we ARE open to reviewing it - but for a supplemental book, not the main book.

That... would have been a good distinction to make earlier ._.

I am very sorry if that didn't come across the first time when we mentioned it. Unfortunately, we are already tight on the design-timeframe for this project, which means that we really have to move on from this. However, we might include it as a completely optional rule in the book, albeit not integrated into the general Core rules.

Syonique - I'm totally on board with reviewing this system - and reviewing the back and forth in this thread - I still have plans to do that.

However, the big limiting factor is always time. I don't want to make a guarantee that this system WILL be included, but I will make a guarantee to review it and discuss it with Andreas. But at the moment, our main focus is finishing off the Alpha documents for the rest of the system.

I don't want you to think we're ignoring this - because I have skimmed the thread several times. I just haven't been able to give it the thorough review that such a change would require.

I will say that if it cannot be included in the Core book, either due to time, mechanical concerns, or whatever else, that a 0th level powers supplement is likely one of our top priorities for the Pathfinder psionic ruleset.

Understood, and thank you.

Sorry if I came across wrong or not clear enough. :/ That was never my intention.

I have to totally disagree here.

That draft is wonderful, and reinstituting the SAME NUMBER of existing spell levels and power levels for all supernatural effects, including level 0 effects, is something for the core rules, not some addon.

Psionic talens went the same way now as wizardly catrips have gone before:
Cantrips have been in 1st edition, removed largely in 2nd edition, house-ruled back again in by magazines, reintroduced in 3rd Edition. Since they always have been weak in the beginning (which is why they are cantrips in the first place) there is nothing that can reasonably justify this zigzag policy by various DnD owners.

DnD 3rd follows the idea to have a consistent game system backbone for all classes, as does PF. It was good to have cantrips/orisons and 9 spell levels for all classes, so supernatural power became comparable - not 9 spell levels and possibly cantrips for arcane magic and 7 spell levels and no cantrips for the divine.

Psionics Handbook 3.0 had many flaws, but it was a good thing it adhered to the same pattern as the basic system.

Also, many supernatural organisations are supposed to have some means of educating there young apprentices (which would be 0,5 level characters as in DMG 3.0 page 40). Now of course, the wizard apprentice learns cantrips first, that's what they are for. Why should a psionic apprentice be required to jump in at level 1? That just doesn't make any sense.

This is the one psionic thing the XPH totally messed up (while in most other repsects it was a huge imrpovement). You have now a good opportunity to fix this for the huge number of DnD players looking forward for a full psionic Pathfinder system, I'd be very glad if you made use of that marvelous opportunity. And if you follow that really really good draft above (which is similar but even better that a house rule draft I've been using for years now), you will not have much work and not much trouble, since without any augment these weak powers cannot break anything system-wise.