MaverickWolf wrote:

There's actually an interesting thought: For those who were OK with Hidden Knowledge and Enlightened Mind, would you be interested in seeing them show up as Blade Skills?

Yes

I've been playing both the alpha SK and the beta SK in a Pathfinder game recently, and this very idea has been brought up several times. Having access to non-attack powers adds both flavor and depth to a good character design. I've used the Hidden Talent feat to grant my SK the Endure Elements effectively once/day as a way to illustrate that she's so suffused with psychic energy that she shrugs off the cold and damp of the campaign setting. It's a near-trivial piece of engineering, but it pays huge story dividends.

MaverickWolf wrote:

... what powers would you like to see get access to with it?

Side-stepping the whole 'talents' discussion, I'd like to see a Blade Skill option that grants you knowledge of the power at ML X (ML = CL, or even ML = some fraction of CL) and 1 PP per Blade Skill for the following powers:

Blinding Flash (Untapped Potential, p 109)
Burst
Catfall
Chameleon
Conceal Psychometabolism (Morphean, p 9)
Conceal Thoughts
Distract
Elf Sight
Endure Elements
Know Direction & Location
Matter Agitation

In each of these, you're allowing your SK to channel some of the tremendous energies at their disposal into something more pragmatically useful. Nothing that gives them an unbalanced edge, but definitely something that's worth investing Blade Skills in. I'd certainly be taking 1-3.

If anything, I like this mechanism a lot more than the Enlightened Mind/Hidden Knowledge approach in the beta. If upper-level Blade Skills allowed you to take select 2nd or 3rd level utility powers, that'd be a deal-clincher for me.

@ MW not sure if you missed my answer or been to busy to respond, but i'd like to hear your thoughts on what i said above regarding Powers for the SK and the issues with Force Screen/Inertial Armor.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

@ MW not sure if you missed my answer or been to busy to respond, but i'd like to hear your thoughts on what i said above regarding Powers for the SK and the issues with Force Screen/Inertial Armor.

Sorry, simply forgot to type my answer to be honest. I read it on my phone in work, and never remembered to come back to it.

1. Making them unaugmented goes completely against how psi-like abilities would work. And these would be psi-like abilities, NOT powers. We're avoiding making rules exceptions like that for one class. Unnecessary complications and all that.

2. Giving them powers that mimic blade skills just seems silly to begin with. It turns into one of those instances of 'Why didn't we just go with inertial armor and force screen and leave it at that?'.

@Dabbler: Making them feats seems reduntant if they're SK only (and then there's Hidden Talent to consider). I think they fit better as Blade Skills, unless Andreas and Jeremy decide they want to let everyone access feats that grant psi-like abilities (which I honestly don't think is a good idea).

@Syonique: I honestly haven't looked at that, but as it's already been stated that it will most likely be in a supplement, not in Psionics Unleashed, I feel that's a topic for a later date.

@Myrokhad: Thank you for the list. Things like that help better put into perspective exactly what our audience is looking for. I'm not sure on burst (namely due to the Speed of Thought blade skill), but I like the other core powers listed there. (I don't know how much non-core is going into Psionics Unleashed, and it's not likely to be a large amount, so I'm simply not going to say anything on the two non-core powers.)

Speaking for myself... I actually find that Inertial Armor fits a niche that Mind Armor does not: specifically, the fact that Inertial Armor has *no* armor check penalty or max Dex bonus. Once you start boosting Dex past 18 or so (which even a normal 1st level human can do, thanks to the +2 racial stat points), you start noticing that max Dex bonus. Anyone that multiclasses w/Monk would notice it, as well. Arcane Spell Failure would kick in for anyone with an arcane multiclass, odd as that might be.

Until the later levels where the Enhancement bonus outweighs the lost AC from max Dex bonus, Inertial Armor is actually better than Mind Armor. Again, speaking just for myself, I'd be perfectly happy if one blade skill provided Inertial Armor (which does NOT come with additional Enhancements and abilities, but also does not count as armor or have any of the associated downsides), just like the 3.0 feat provided. Having it auto-augment at later levels (but again, still no additional armor abilities), or having it not penalize your mindblade at all, would be nice, but honestly I was happy with just the 3.0 Inertial Armor. Just MHO.

Don't think soulknives should have access to Force Shield, however, as that pretty clearly does stomp on the Defender form's territory.

MaverickWolf wrote:

@Dabbler: Making them feats seems reduntant if they're SK only (and then there's Hidden Talent to consider). I think they fit better as Blade Skills, unless Andreas and Jeremy decide they want to let everyone access feats that grant psi-like abilities (which I honestly don't think is a good idea).

Actually, I wouldn't make them SK only. I'd just make them psionic feats and have done - that way they are available to all psionic races as well, so your Elan fighter or Maenad ranger can also access a little psionic ability. I feel that is, flavour-wise, one of the striking differences between psionics and magic.

Syonique wrote:

Don't think soulknives should have access to Force Shield, however, as that pretty clearly does stomp on the Defender form's territory.

... unless you let it stack with a mind-shield.

Dabbler273 wrote:

Actually, I wouldn't make them SK only. I'd just make them psionic feats and have done - that way they are available to all psionic races as well, so your Elan fighter or Maenad ranger can also access a little psionic ability. I feel that is, flavour-wise, one of the striking differences between psionics and magic.

I don't think that being racially psionic or possessing Wild Talent should give you access to powers. Just because you have some inherent ability with a specific psionic does not necessarily mean you have anything going for you beyond that. I feel that the kind of training to learn new psi-like abilities, instead of just enhancing old ones, only comes from the kind of dedication that goes into learning a class, not a feat. Said Elan fighter or Maenad ranger both already have psionic ability (and can use it for other psionic feats) - I don't think psionic ability should translate to 'able to use powers' by default.

Quote::

... unless you let it stack with a mind-shield.

We're not even going to consider that option.

MaverickWolf wrote:

@Myrokhad: Thank you for the list. Things like that help better put into perspective exactly what our audience is looking for. I'm not sure on burst (namely due to the Speed of Thought blade skill), but I like the other core powers listed there. (I don't know how much non-core is going into Psionics Unleashed, and it's not likely to be a large amount, so I'm simply not going to say anything on the two non-core powers.)

No worries. I think you get the gist of what I was going for ... those darned useful powers that you really need every so often but aren't willing to multiclass as a psion just to pick up.

I get why PU won't reference other Dreamscarred products; will there be a separate DP add-on or supplement to PU later on?

Myrokhad wrote:

MaverickWolf wrote: @Myrokhad: Thank you for the list. Things like that help better put into perspective exactly what our audience is looking for. I'm not sure on burst (namely due to the Speed of Thought blade skill), but I like the other core powers listed there. (I don't know how much non-core is going into Psionics Unleashed, and it's not likely to be a large amount, so I'm simply not going to say anything on the two non-core powers.) No worries. I think you get the gist of what I was going for ... those darned useful powers that you really need every so often but aren't willing to multiclass as a psion just to pick up. I get why PU won't reference other Dreamscarred products; will there be a separate DP add-on or supplement to PU later on?

I believe current plans are to release Psionics Unleashed, then update Third Dawn and Untapped Potential (not necessarily in that order). I don't know beyond those products, although I can tell you that an update to High Psionics: Soulknives is a little unlikely, considering the rebuild of the soulknife here. Much of what's in that book can be done now (or at least close to it).

MaverickWolf wrote:

I believe current plans are to release Psionics Unleashed, then update Third Dawn and Untapped Potential (not necessarily in that order). I don't know beyond those products ...

Roger that, sir. That tracks. Thanks.

Count me in as a committed buyer.

The idea is to take the concepts covered in those books and not just update, but also add to them.

So we can expect a Psionics Unveiled, Psionics Uncarnate and so on, which will contain Marksmen, Worldthought Medics, Society Minds, Morpheans and Halo Knights, as well as a lot of new and interesting material. They will not all be of the same size as our old books (depending on if we can get a deal with Flaming Cobra for print distribution).

We will try to sprinkle in smaller PDFs covering new ideas inbetween the bigger releases. Yeah, I see a chance to look over "Music of the Mind" (thoughtsong-based psionics) and "The Seventh Path" (psionics about spirits and possession) again, and I'm taking it!

Angellis_ater wrote:

Yeah, I see a chance ... and I'm taking it!

Most excellent. I'm very excited to hear this.

If at all possible, I'd like to stress an interest in the Mophean and Marksman products once you're ready to start. Personal favorites.

*Cough*-Worldthought Medics-*Cough*

We might throw up a vote here at the website about which classes to give the PF treatment once we finish this development cycle.

I wasn't acquainted with Dreamscarred's work before this project, but what I have seen so far looks pretty good. I'd certainly be interested to see what else they can produce ...

I was just going over the beta SK again and I've really been thinking about the mind armour tree. Then I asked myself if any SK I'd play would ever take the skill (or even the full tree), and I said "no". Here's why: It is no different from normal armour, and it makes your mindblade worse if both are out at the same time (let alone a defender, who's the most likely to want more armour).
Sure you can have armour at a thought, but there are other items one can buy to get around having to take the time to don one's armour.
OK, so it is free armour..... So? A SK just saved boat-loads of money from not buying a weapon, what's stopping the SK from affording awesome armour? Awesome armour with the same penalties as mind armour.
I'd personally stock up on other more useful blade skills rather than taking 3 blade skills to get heavy mithral armour where I can just take 1 feat to do that.
The balance to just handing out an armour bonus willy-nilly (not really, you're spending valuable class features on it) is the fact is does make your other mind blades/shield worse. If you want to balance it further, why not take out medium armour proficiency?
Or another solution to the mind armour... sucky-ness... is to remove the speed hit and max dex bonus, while leaving the armour check penalty.
Sorry if this sounds... attack like. I just don't see the point of taking those blade skills if they're gonna be exactly the same as wearing normal armour.
Note: If this has already been looked at/addressed, sorry. Been a while since I've read through the thread.

Deadric, I think you raise an important point. This is why I suggested the psionic talents feat option to this ... one dip of psion could get you several protective powers for a bigger boost to AC at no ACP or having to take any feats, if you really didn't want to bother with physical armour.

I can understand the thematic option but really, is it worth it? I don't think it is, myself.

Oh, and there are equivalents to the psionic feats in magic, although they are not in the core SRD - such as the Dragonmarks in the Eberron settings.

the ability to switch your armor enhancements around as needed should count for something. don't think of it as having a suit of magic armor. think of it as having dozens of suits of armor, each customised for a different situation.

That is true, but how important is that? I suppose features like energy resistance would be useful, but a lot of them are going to be available as buffs from casters regardless. I suppose it is a 'swings and roundabouts' situation ... I'm not overly enamoured of them, although I wouldn't remove them.

I'll give you that. But honestly, how often do you get an 8 hour stretch where you can reset your armour (let alone another 8 hours for your weapon) before an important encounter?
I can see that a lot of thought went into making the blade skills for armour, but they just need to be better than normal armour (not having a weight is kinda nice) for me to really think them worthwhile (though having mithral and adamantine stack is nice).
If, for instance, the "Mind Armour, Improved" ability were written into the Mind Armour ability from the start, I'd have said OK to the whole thing. That at least shows that the character is getting more used to manifesting their armour as they level (something I should hope they would get used to).
I guess that's where my vote would go: add the "Mind Armour, Improved" ability into the Mind Armour ability, and I'd say OK. ►_◄

The ability to 'reset' their mind-armour, mind-shield and mind-blade should be integrated into the same action or time period, IMHO. Otherwise you have effectively lost their biggest advantage: flexibility.