I have been digging into Complete Control and I love it. It really makes character creation as flexible as I always wished it would be. I have also jumped on the Pathfinder express. I am inherently a lazy man and was wondering if Pathfinder will be broken down for use with Complete Control? I know it would be just a matter of sitting down and categorizing the character abilities but I just don't have the time and hell, I'd pay for it. How about it?

atcually, I think such a project should wait until the pathfinder psionics is released, just so you can do it all at once, rather than as multiple bits and pieces.

Well, honestly it would all depend on NLF (aka John) since Complete Control is his baby. I'll chat with him and see if he's interested.

I would be very interested in a version of Complete Control for Pathfinder. How would you deal with the 3 odd XP progressions though?

Pathfinder is something I have been very resistant to doing ... just because I am content in 3.x and I know 3.x very well. I know nothing about Pathfinder (not because it's bad, but because I'm just that happy in 3.x ... well, that and I am currently in the design stages for my own system/world). However, I was at first resistant to doing Complete Races and have since been persuaded multiple times into trying to complete it ... and it is now nearly complete. So, lesson learned: if there is enough outcry for it I can be swayed.

But before even looking into it ... there are a few questions that would have to be answered. The biggest one is this: Is there enough of a difference between 3.x and Pathfinder to warrant a whole new work? Or can Complete control rules be used and just the XP chart/prices get changed?

Not knowing Pathfinder at all ... I am not qualified to answer that.

Quote::

The biggest one is this: Is there enough of a difference between 3.x and Pathfinder to warrant a whole new work? Or can Complete control rules be used and just the XP chart/prices get changed?

I don't like calling Pathfinder "3.75" - but it's pretty close to being that. Having played 3.0 and 3.5 for years, Pathfinder was a really easy fit, whereas there was a lot of page-flipping playing 4E.

Long story short, Pathfinder is very, very similar to 3.5 - a lot of streamlining from 3.5 to PRPG, but core mechanics are more tweaking than overhauling. Most of the classes got beefed up to help fill in weak spots or dead levels, characters get more feats, and races got changed a bit... but the core is pretty similar.

My inclination is a "complete pathfinder control" would be more about tweaking the costs associated and the charts, more than an actual new design.

I agree it's more of a tweak than a complete overhaul, but the XP progression kinda throws me. Doesn't that underlie the entire structure of CC? The Pathfinder progressions are a pain in the kiester. I've been tinkering with some simple math formula based alternates. I can provide them if that'll help.

Having worked with PF design for a few months now I can only agree, it is a question of tweaking a few values and looking over a few abilities, perhaps adding one or two and you're more or less done.

the capstones might be a little tricky: many are similar to an ability gained at a lower level(the Rogue's Master Strike) while some are more powerful versions of abilities plus something extra(the Ranger's Master Hunter).

I'm not saying this should be difficult, but in the case of the Master Strike, it's Death Attack+a sleep effect. So would you cost it like the Assassin's DA, plus a little extra for sleep effect in which case you could buy Master's Strike at maybe 8th-10th? or do you make it much more costly, due to being an ability gained at 20th level in a base class.

MisterGorn wrote:

I agree it's more of a tweak than a complete overhaul, but the XP progression kinda throws me. Doesn't that underlie the entire structure of CC? The Pathfinder progressions are a pain in the kiester. I've been tinkering with some simple math formula based alternates. I can provide them if that'll help.

Could you say more about this - specifically giving exact examples of the progressions involved? Because that is one area of math that is by and large a specialty area of mine ... figuring out what equation can mimic a progression. Hence, why CC works! But I am very interested in what you mean by "3 odd progressions" mentioned in an earlier post.

@ Jeremy and A_a: thanks for the insight. In all actuality, tweaking is more likely to get a hit with me than if it were more than that. Doing Full Control was a new system, but it was such a "numbers lite" system that it could be learned and mastered in literally 4 days for me. I had to play 3.x and build almost 250 characters before I really felt like I knew what was going on. I get the feeling that Pathfinder is more rules (like 3.x) than rules lite (like True 20). Since I'm not sure I want to learn another in depth system ... hearing that PF would be more like tweaking than recreating is good news in my book.

LMS ... unfortunately, I really can't respond at all to what you posted because I just don't understand the mechanics - what with me actually never having read anything PF. Sorry!

The best place to look over the Pathfinder rules is over on Paizo's Pathfinder Reference Document.

The "3 odd progressions" for experience points is in reference to the chart found here. Basically, this gives three different values for how much XP it takes to attain a given level - this is so DMs can decide if they want their players to gain levels slowly, medium, or quickly. The adventures that Paizo writes all use the medium progression.

I'm actually slightly more skeptical than most that making a Pathfinder Control (which I definitely want to see!) would be quite as simple as people are saying. None of the changes are very large, but they are spread out across the various classes, skills, feats, etc. It's not much more than tweaking, yes, but it's a considerable amount of tweaking.

Whether it's the change to channeling energy, sorcerers having bloodlines, changing trapfinding, unlimited cantrips/orisons, alternate class abilities instead of familiars/animal companions/special mounts, new fighter class abilities, or something else, I think there'd be quite a bit to do there.

If it sounds like I'm trying to warn you off, NLF, rest assured that I'm not. As I mentioned above, I think that a Pathfinder Control book would be too awesome for words (that said, I echo the poster who said that it should wait for Dreamscarred Press's PF psionics material, so it can take that into account). It's just that it won't be quite as easy as a few quick changes.

NLF,
you know the Assassin's Death Attack? add in an option to cause the victim to sleep for 1d4 hours gained at 20th level and you have Master's Strike.

Just a few quick things to add to the discussion. Here's a forum thread that describes what underlies the three Pathfinder XP Progressions:

paizo.com/paizo/messag...ssionChart

Here's what I've been tinkering with as possible replacements (please bear in mind that I'm a complete amateur at this):

Version 1 - D&D3.5 style progression:
XP Total = ((level*level)/2)*1000
The progression is different than in 3.5 but begins and ends at roughly the same values. It also means that 1st level costs 500XP, but this isn't a bad thing in a point buy system.

Version 2 - PF style progression:
XP per Level = (1.6E(Level))*500
This progression begins faster than the PF Fast XP column and ends slower than the PF Slow XP column.

I'm not sure if providing these helps at all or just demonstrates that I don't know what I'm doing.

Going over my notes I noticed that my second progression comes from here:

paizo.com/paizo/messag...OnAFormula

I don't want it to look like I'm taking credit for someone else's efforts.