Dabbler273 wrote:

Zeuy wrote: What's the reasoning behind #2? Isn't one of the psionic myths counters that energy powers are NOT overpowered? In my experience, they aren't. It is a common complaint of people who haven't tried to play a psionic character as opposed to a vancian caster and see it as an unfair advantage, but in practice the lack of number of powers makes it essential that if you are going to blast somebody you need the option of finding a way of blasting them that will hurt them. A vancian caster has that in the scope of spells they have.

Unfortunately, this reasoning always leave me with the 'Why doesn't a sorcerer have the same options?' taste. In many ways, the psionic is more like a sorcerer than it is a wizard, and while the sorcerer may have more spells known, it doesn't have the option of augmenting those spells (and while they do auto-upgrade, most lower level spells capout, which powers do not do). I understand that energy powers as a rule really aren't overpowered, but I'm not sure they're properly balanced either.

Because the sorcerer gets more spells (with the bloodlines, quite a few more spells), and can change spells as they level up as well, and take feats or buy items that allow them to change energy types. However, the sorcerer is supposed to be compared against the Wilder, who has eleven powers at 20th level. Eleven. Count them. The wizard can choose among a huge mass of spells, he just has to prepare the right ones. Without that flexibility in the powers, the psionic characters are hosed in comparison.

As for power capout, remember that augmentation effectively eats up the equivalent of higher spell slots.

Unless you are going to give the psion and wilder more powers, and the metapsionic feats and psionic items to change energy types (which the sorcerer has), you're basically telling him to bend over and take the metamagic rod where the sun doesn't shine.

In my experience of play, the powers are balanced, even the energy powers - as somebody once pointed out, a spellcaster specialising in direct damage spells is often the weakest kind of caster. Psionic characters can and should be able to do some things better than arcane or divine ones, just as arcane or divine casters can do some things better than psionic characters. You don't complain that psionic characters cannot heal easily, for example. In effect, you seem to be asking them to nothing better than vancian casters, and some things worse, which is a bum deal.

Essentially, the balance is there.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Dabbler273 wrote:

Unless you are going to give the psion and wilder more powers, and the metapsionic feats and psionic items to change energy types (which the sorcerer has), you're basically telling him to bend over and take the metamagic rod where the sun doesn't shine.

He hasn't said that he wouldn't. I think it's a good alternative to use feats and items. Besides the other classes use other means to do their damage. The shaper has crystals and constructs. The telepath has his mind powers. The seer... well, his specialty isn't damage. But my point is that not having all the energy options doesn't mean he's nerfed.

MaximusRift wrote:

Dabbler273 wrote: Unless you are going to give the psion and wilder more powers, and the metapsionic feats and psionic items to change energy types (which the sorcerer has), you're basically telling him to bend over and take the metamagic rod where the sun doesn't shine. He hasn't said that he wouldn't. I think it's a good alternative to use feats and items. Besides the other classes use other means to do their damage. The shaper has crystals and constructs. The telepath has his mind powers. The seer... well, his specialty isn't damage. But my point is that not having all the energy options doesn't mean he's nerfed.

... unless you are going for the blaster build. The Wilder is best used in that role as the damaging powers are the ones that augment most usefully, and he is VERY limited in powers. I just hope they make the wilder an exception, like the kinetisicist.

I'm a great believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and I have yet to be convinced that the flexibility of psionic powers is in any way broken. I can see the need to bring powers in line with the changes to polymorph and similar fixes in PF, but if there's nothing wrong with the energy powers, why change them? "The basic complaint seems to be: you are allowed to be worse than casters at some things, but never better than them at anything" which is basically nonsensical.

Dabbler273 wrote:

I'm a great believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" and I have yet to be convinced that the flexibility of psionic powers is in any way broken. ... If there's nothing wrong with the energy powers, why change them?

I concur. The flexibility on the energy strikes has always been a strong plus for me, since it offsets the psionicist's relative lack of options when compared with more traditional spell-casters. I'd like to point out two additional points, though, while we're on the subject:

First, we should keep in mind that fire, cold and electricity are energy types that become less and less effective as you progress up the CR scale, since higher level monsters have resistances and immunities to these energy types, compounded by spell resistance. If you were playing Paizo's Legacy of Fire campaign, for example (and adventure focused on effrits, djinn, and the elemental plain of fire), then you'd probably never use the fire option on your energy series powers.

That leaves the sonic option as your best striking power (since very, very few bad guys are immune to it), which is offset by its lower damage-dealing potential. It's excellent to have the option, though, as you want your manifester to stay useful in the game without having to emulate the wizard who chose his spells poorly (e.g., having to quit the battlefield, sleep off the useless spell choices, and re-arm for the next day's fight).

Along those lines, I'd like to see some option to add variant effects to the standard energy manifestations on these powers. If you look at the energy lance power (page 87 of Complete Psionic), you'll see what I mean. A cold-based attack, for example, stiffens the target's body and causes them to lose their next move action on a failed save. This kind of secondary effect is both plausible, and helps to keep the power useful even against targets that are resistant to most/all of the attack's damage.

Well your psion does not have the option of backing off, sleeping and picking new powers - he is stuck with what he has, so if he's useless on one particular day, he is useless period. One of the reasons powers are restricted in numbers and that there is a limit on number of powers available is because of their greater flexibility.

For example, there are 51 2nd level spells available in the PF core book alone (and remember you can import from other products, making for two or three times this just from WotC stuff alone), while the psion/wilder list in the XPH has 29 2nd level powers - barely half that, and perhaps on double this number if that from other sources. A psion specialist can get only an extra 2-3 powers. A wizard is picking from a potentially huge list of spells to deal with a situation, a psion is picking from what he knows, in this example maybe 4 2nd level powers.

A sorcerer is also picking from the 5 2nd level spells he knows, but his psionic counterpart, the Wilder, has just 1. That one power has to make up in augmentation and flexibility what the sorcerer's five spells do.

This is why the powers have greater flexibility and augmentation possibilities than arcane spells. Take either of these away and you unbalance things badly, unless you add hugely to the list of powers available and the number of powers that manifesters can take.

Edit: There was a thread I saw about "Myths of Psionics" listing all the misapprehensions and myths about psionics that were untrue, and that I can't find now. The Energy flexibility was among them, and it was demonstrated that it wasn't unbalanced at all.

With regarding to adding effects, I think metapsionic feats are the way to go there, not changes to powers. For the backward compatibility holy grail of pathfinder, you need to change only what powers you have to changes (such as the metamorphosis powers in line with the polymorph spells), and leave unchanged that which you do not need to change.

Dabbler273 wrote:

For the backward compatibility holy grail of pathfinder, you need to change only what powers you have to changes (such as the metamorphosis powers in line with the polymorph spells), and leave unchanged that which you do not need to change.

(emphasis added)

I get that, and I grudgingly agree. I'd prefer to see a wider range of options that the metapsionic feats just can't accomplish. Things like the explosive spell metamagic feat from Complete Arcane or the Piercing Cold feat from Frostburn. Things that add flavor and depth to the basic powers.

Speaking of, given the preference for magic/psionics transparency, has anyone discussed simple conversion rules for making metamagic feats cross-compatible as metapsionic feats?

Adding new, equivalent feats is easy, but I wouldn't make feats applicable to both systems - that would be difficult as metamagic feats often require higher level spell-slots, while enhanced powers cost extra points (but less of them) and the expenditure of the psionic focus.

There has to be a mathematical conversion system ... higher Vancian slots equating to a higher level of PP expenditure. It seems a shame to deny ourselves so many options.

There is, but it's not directly equatable. The base cost of a power is (2xlevel)-1 power points, and powers and spell levels a roughly equivalent. However, they don't always scale. Some factors like range scale with the manifester level, but other have to be augmented.

For example, fireball is a third level spell, but can inflict up to 10d6 damage at tenth level. Energy ball is the equivalent power, and while you can switch energy types freely, it is a fourth level power, and if you want to inflict ten dice of damage with it you need to expend ten energy points on it making it the equivalent cost of a 5 1/2 level spell! One reason you get more versatility out of energy ball ... it's higher level.

Powers like skate are cannot be augmented, and if you have fifty power points, you can manifest if fifty times. But then, it's not that amazing a power, either. You aren't likely to use it much at high level, and if you were a wizard, you wouldn't bother learning it past a certain level - it certainly isn't as good as expiditious retreat.

In short, the equivalence of powers and spells is somewhat illusory. As has been mentioned some 1st-level powers are worth only the same as 0-level spells. Some powers that look the same as spells have different levels to them, and augmenting effectively changes the level of a power. The flexibility of powers is the compensation for these factors.

I found the thread about psionic myths, it is here, by the way!

While it's not exactly on the current theme of discussion, one thing I noticed that was painfully different from Psionics to Magic in 3.5e was the abject lack of full manifesting classes.

A wizard has access to classes like the Incanatrix, Master Specialist, Abjurant Champion, Alienist, Geometer, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Mage of the Arcane Order, Wild Mage... the list goes on. Powerful prestige classes that also fully advance spellcasting are one of the reasons despite my love for psionics as a system, I'm more likely to try to convince my DM to let me play a Spell-points Variant Wizard than to play a Psion or Erudite. The fact of the matter is that Psionics has never seemed to Prestige Class out well for some reason, while it was fine and acceptable for mages to have a slew of prestige classes and still be able to manifest 20/20. While I know many of those PrCs aren't pathfinder specifically, pathfinder is designed to play nicely with 3.5 (indeed, the reason the core classes in PF are stronger than the core classes in 3.5 is to match the level of power of the supplemental classes and PrCs.) Everyone I know that plays PF plays it as a replacement for the core books, but still allows the extra supplements. So... Psionic PrCs, can they not eat my manifesting?

EDIT: I did find a post relating to this in another forum, but I still want some feedback. Sadly, you can't undo the fact that those classes exist, and they do make magic a stronger choice than psionics, which is a shame as its a better system.

And while I'm thinking about it, can we make the Cerebremancer less Mystic Theurge, more Ultimate Magus?

Last comment: The Erudite isn't SRD so you won't be looking at an update for him, right? Shame because he could use some rebalancing.

I can see what you mean. Many of these prestige classes are not 'core' though, and are not in the core Pathfinder rules either. One of the advantages of 'beefing' core classes in Pathfinder was to ensure that your base class had plenty of reasons for you to stick with it, so taking prestige classes didn't become a matter of course. Take a look at the current work, and I hope you will find that psions and wilders have plenty of reasons to stay with their class.

If you bring them into a pathfinder game, no problem - you can also bring in a variety of non-core psionic prestige classes too - Anrchic Initiate, Ebon Saint, Ectopic Adept to name but three.

I don't know if anyone else has suggested this, but and maybe this is Star Wars fanboy in me, I'd like to see the a class that is part Soulknife - part Psychic Warrior. Trim down the number of powers available more in line number of spells Ranger and Paladin have available, but grant them some Psychic Sword abilities.

Eliminate the power strings, Concussion string for example. Always thought that was stupid. You don't really have a string of Fireball spells, it's either Fireball or Delayed Blast fireball. So why not have something like Concussion and then Shockwave. Streamlining the powers would be great.

I'm also for Psionics being different from magic, a bit less versatile, mroe powerful in the charm/mental screw-with-you aspect. I liked the 2E set-up of rolling against your Power Score to determine if the power would minimally effective, highly effective, or oh crap what did you just do to yourself.

interesting ideas, and far be it from me to say they won't ever get done, but i can't imagine any of it will make it into the core book, which is mostly making the XPH material fit for pathfinder.

still, some of those ideas may yet show up (something like taking a level of war mind with a soulknife, then taking a prestige class to advance the war mind's manifesting ability, would very roughly approximate a combined soulknife/psychic warrior, if that's what you want though)

dytrrnikl wrote:

I don't know if anyone else has suggested this, but and maybe this is Star Wars fanboy in me, I'd like to see the a class that is part Soulknife - part Psychic Warrior. Trim down the number of powers available more in line number of spells Ranger and Paladin have available, but grant them some Psychic Sword abilities.

Then either a multi-class soulknife/psychic warrior would do that or a prestige class along the lines of the Psionic Fist (or Fist of Zuoken) would fill this niche, I'm guessing.

I'm not a fan of creating classes which can be made from a simple multi-class option with what exists, but I do take your point. I'm a great fan of the monk/psychic warrior combo, myself ...

I know this is late into the creative process, but I would like to interject some of my thoughts.

One mission Paizo had with Pathfinder was to bridge the gap between the steady fighter and the powerhouse spellcasters. Typically a fighter has many feats and can fight at the same output level over a lengthy period of encounters. Spellcasters start out higher but when they expend spells they drop possibly below the fighter. The psionic character exists further from the fighter than the mage, so they will need the most work. A simple fix I have been using is to change the PP cost for each power level. As it stands, a psionic character can chose to use (3) 2nd level powers or one 5th level for the same PP cost. Or (3) 3rd level powers or one 8th. I would think the choice is quite obvious. This does not become a problem until you start using 5th level powers or 9th level+. I have read the blaster arguements and in truth the save or suck powers is where psionics dominates. The ability to always have your highest save DC is quite potent, what do you give up? Not much when you realize that most spell casters rest after using their top two levels of spells and dipping into their third highest. Below that only half (at most) of low level spells will ever get used. I recommend since you have the chance to deviate from 3.5 to some degree, the chance to do so is now.

Continued from my previous post...

I propose altering the pp cost per power level:

1st from 1 to 1
2nd from 3 to 2
3rd from 5 to 4
4th from 7 to 6
5th from 9 to 9
6th from 11 to 12
7th from 13 to 16
8th from 15 to 20
9th from 17 to 25

I really think this is preferable over limiting the number of PP/ encounter.

Although I am a newbie here I have been on the Paizo boards since their start. I believe I understand James Jacobs view on current psionics and I feel this change would be the best way to get Paizo's support.

Hi Baramay!

You might want to take a look at the discussion thread I started on comparing psionics and magic in this forum. The problem with your suggestion is that a psionic character cannot expend more power points on a power than they have levels in their manifesting class. This means that the maximum number of power points a 17th level psion can expend on a single power is 17. If the power point cost is 25, he can learn the power at 17th level but cannot use it until 25th level - not a workable solution, I'm afraid.

Also, the psion is starting out with less power points in terms of the equivalent number of spells cast per day than any specialist wizard or sorcerer has available. It's a bit like comparing a distance runner to a sprinter: the sprinter will always be faster over the short distance, but he cannot keep going for as long. Essentially, the psionic character has less resources to spend, but a better accounting method than the wizard or sorcerer. Furthermore, the augmentation system, while it might look cool, has to be employed just to keep some powers up to speed, and actually only accelerates the loss of power points.

For example, you state that a psion at 5th level has a base 25 power points, and if we assume a 16-17 in his intelligence then an extra 7 pp from this, giving him 32. As you say, a 1st level power costs 1 PP, so he can cast an astonishing 32 1st level powers, way more than the wizard, right? Well no, not really. Some 1st level powers require enhancement to keep up with spells. Say there's a couple of trolls bearing down on the party, then the wizard cuts loose a burning hands and toasts them both for 5d4 damage. What can the psion do? He instead nails one troll with an energy ray. But to max out the damage to 5d6+5 for a ray of fire, he has to spend 5 power points, the equivalent of a 3rd level power. This is where magic is more powerful than psionics - yes, the psion has inflicted more damage, but only on one target and only if he hits. Overall, psionics can generally inflict more damage with direct damage powers, but they have less access to area-of-effects than wizards and those powers do not scale the damage without augmentation.

Another example: the wizard wants to detect magic, so he casts the cantrip. In Pathfinder, he can do this as many times as he wants. There are no 0-level powers, though, so the psion has to use a power point to use detect psionics.

In short, psionics is no more 'broken' than the core magic system. A psion can 'nova' and blow all their power points in one or two encounters, but wizards and sorcerers can likewise blow their most powerful spells on their first encounters. The solution in both cases is to teach the players to self-limit, rather than complain the characters are broken.

I know that James and others have conceded that they are themselves not experts on 3.5 psionics; this is no slight on them but a lot of the 'problems' with psionics are down to not knowing the system very well rather than the system being broken. Psionics is different - game-mechanically - to core-system magic; that is one reason some people like it and some don't, but that doesn't make it a bad or unbalanced system. I think it is reasonably balanced with core magic, especially in the Pathfinder system. The problem is not in increasing the power point costs of powers, it's giving the psionic characters options that allow them to avoid having to use them.

One very good way to look at the augment system, is like built-in metamagic feats like Empower Spell and Heighten Spell.

Usually, a mage will be better off using a higher-level offensive spell than a low-level spell boosted with Empower Spell or Heighten Spell. Sure, your Charm Person spell boosted with Heighten Spell to 5th level is basically getting +4 to the Save DC and can bypass Lesser Globe of Invulnerability and is harder to dispel, but Dominate Person would give you those same benefits plus better control for the same spell slot.

The ability to "always have your highest Save DC" via augments comes at a very steep price.

(Correction to myself: I actually can't think of any SPELL-level dependent Dispel effects at the moment. I can't help but think that there ARE such, but they elude me, so... eh. Strikethrough unless/until I actually recall such.)

And don't forget that the power isn't actually heightened - it is still a 1st level power, and will be foiled by a lesser globe of invulnerability for all that augmentation. So yes, you can do some stuff with psionics that you cannot do with magic. But you can do stuff with magic that you cannot do with psionics - for example, there is no equivelant of illusion or necromantic spells in psionics.