There's a LOT more work to be done, I think!

Pessimist ;b

Dabbler273 wrote:

There's a LOT more work to be done, I think!

While the amount of work to be done varies greatly by who you ask, one way or the other, the next version seen will be the final version of it. There will not be a Beta 2 release to start another round of unending debate over.


I did have a question for you regarding the gamma, as I haven't happily settled on it myself. Do you really think the soulknife needs the full skill list it had in 3.5 with the new Pathfinder skill list (and its firm setting onto the full combat class path)?

Good point. I think the class could lose Heal and Slight of Hand for definite. They have always been a bit more dex-based, so I wouldn't want to get rid of Acrobatics and Stealth, but Escape Artist could probably go. As for Ride and Handle Animal, are they that much of a fighter? I think Handle Animal could fall by the wayside as well, but that's just my opinion.

I would just give them the Monk skill list, swapping out the Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Religion) for Knowledge (Psionics).

(Btw, regarding Escape Artist: trying to tie up a soulknife is kind of futile on any long-term basis, if you think about it )

Well that depends on if you view the Sk as a kind of monk or a kind of fighter.

Soulknife is a *warrior*. Both Monk and Fighter are warriors.

Some people see SK more like a Fighter; Defender builds using heavy mind armor and shield, for example, are certainly Fighter-esque. Some people see SK more like a Monk; Dex-based Skirmisher builds, for example. Even some Str-based SK builds can be Monk-like (many Monks use high Str, after all).

Fighters spend most of their 'free time' practicing fighting (hence the class name). In exchange, they gain full 1/1 BAB and a massive arsenal of weapon and armor proficiencies, but very few skill points. Monks, by contrast, spend less time practicing their fighting, and instead divert some of that time to intellectual pursuits such as meditation and philosophy, as well as general body conditioning (yoga, acrobatics, etc.). In exchange, they gain more skill points and have a BAB that is (practically) as good as a Fighter's (Flurry of Blows), but ONLY with a narrow selection of weapons (Unarmed Strike and special monk weapons); with 'regular' weapon such as swords, they have sub-par combat ability (3/4 BAB, no martial weapon proficiencies). Again, Soulknives are closer to Monks in this respect: more skill points and BAB that is as good as a Fighter's, but training ONLY with a narrow selection of weapons (mindblade); with 'regular' weapons such as swords, they have sub-par combat ability (no martial weapon proficiencies).

Some people think SK is more like a Fighter (probably due to the 1/1 BAB and better HD). Some people think Sk is more like a Monk (partially due to the lack of reliance on conventional weaponry). Class skill lists aren't there to tell you what an individual character CAN or CAN'T do, especially in Pathfinder; all they tell you is what would be TYPICAL for a class as a whole, and thus most likely to have regular, extensive training dedicated to it. As at least a large percentage of players (perhaps a majority, perhaps not, but at least definitely a large percentage) agree that SK is monk-like, that means that a large percentage of SKs are indeed Monk-like, and would receive the same curriculum as a Monk (Acrobatics, Stealth, etc).

Most of the skills that Fighters get are shared by Monks (Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Profession, Ride, Swim), so someone with the Monk's skill set can also perform in a Fighter-y fashion for the most part if an individual decides his Soulknife is more like a Fighter than a Monk. The few skills that Fighters get that Monks do not are Handle Animal, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Engineering), and Survival.

Ride should be kept. As both Fighters and Monks can Ride, it makes sense that a SK can, too. I personally find it kind of odd that Monks would be trained in Riding (honestly, high level Monks can outrun horses!), but if both Fighters and Monks get it, there's no reason SK shouldn't, too. (For that matter, I also find it quite odd that Bards and Rogues don't get Ride as class skills; dashing swashbucklers serenading ladies fair from noble stallions for the Bards, and dirty rotten no-good horse thieves for the Rogues... )

Heal should be removed. As neither Fighters nor Monks get Heal, neither should SK.

Acrobatics, Escape Artist, and Stealth go hand-in-hand. They let you move your entire body gracefully, and if SK gets one, it should get all three. Sleight of Hand, on the other hand, is more of a manual manipulation; being able to palm an object, juggle, or steal. SK should not get Sleight of Hand (why learn to palm a weapon when you can literally dismiss and remake it with a thought?).

Fighters are the generic 'I hit things with swords' base, which can then undergo additional customization primarily through feat selection. Fighters ALSO have a very meager selection of skill points, with which they can emphasize other 'alternate' builds to a degree.

For example, Knowledge (Engineering) is used to make a Fighter that is trained to man siege weaponry and use them to demolish buildings. Soulknives are not builders of heavy siege weaponry; it's doubtful they pay much attention to the craft and care of ANY mundane weapons, since they can create mindblades. So, SKs should not get Knowledge (Engineering) as a class skill. A specific individual could train the skill, of course, but your typical SK will not.

Similarly, Handle Animal is used to make a Fighter that is trained to handle war animals, such as a pack of war hounds or hunting falcons, or one that is able to break and train his own horse. The Ranger class can also be used for this, of course, but sometimes you have a drill sergeant in field plate riding a warhorse... obviously NOT a Ranger, but fully capable of ordering his war hounds to tear a peasant to shreds. Most Fighters will not spend their time and skill points on learning how to train and handle war animals, but of all the characters (both PC and NPC) that would train such, a significant percentage of such are Fighters.

A Fighter is trained to use almost any weapon, be it a club, a sword, a catapult, or a warhorse's trampling hooves. Monks, conversely, train to use their own body as a weapon. In this respect, Soulknives certainly share more with Monks than Fighters: they learn to use their minds as weapons, rather than relying upon outside armament. As such, a SK is about as likely to use a war-trained animal as a Monk is; ie., not very likely at all. An individual so determined certainly COULD, of course, but it's not typical for the class as a whole, and not something that would routinely be trained. Thus, no Handle Animal class skill for SK either.

Knowledge (Dungeoneering)? A SK might have this as a class skill, but for entirely different reasons than a Fighter would. Fighters typically learn Knowledge (Dungeoneering) if they have experience mining (the line for ye typical Dwarf Fighter starts here), or if they are career adventurers used to spelunking caves, tombs, and so forth (another reason they might have Knowledge (Engineering). A SK would typically take this skill for knowledge of aberrations (which are often psionic) if your campaign has any established history of such. So, arguably, SK could also have Knowledge (Dungeoneering) added to the Monk's class list.

Survival. This skill is usually reserved for your rough-and-tough nature types; Barbarians, Rangers, Druids, etc. Fighters get it because many have experience fending for themselves while serving as mercenaries or in an army, and thus actually have a degree of semi-formal training in digging latrines and other such activities which are part of setting up and breaking down camp. Whether SK should get such as a class skill is something of a campaign-specific question: are Soulknives about as common as Fighters, enough that you'll often see entire military units comprised of them? If so, then it does make some sense that they would get it as a class skill. If not, then they wouldn't. I'd recommend against adding it as a class skill by default; if a DM wants to house-rule in that a certain class gets Survival because of his heavily militarized campaign (perhaps he has armies of War Wizards that need to train in Survival, for example), then that's up to the DM, but it wouldn't be typical.

Remember... the skill list just gives you a list of skills that would be typical for the class as a whole. Any given individual will be limited by his skill points, so while some individual SKs might be more Fighter-like, and others more Monk-like, that's really up to individual preference, and both should be readily available (unlike, say, making the SK more Wizard-like, which is not typical at all).

I must say one thing: Shouldn't fighters be able to bind the wounds on themselves and others? I mean that it makes good sense to me and all. Other than that the unofficial Gamma doesn't look too bad in comparison to what it started as...

thank you. You'd think fighters would have heal, but fighters don't get that skill, or barbarians, so by the yardstick we are looking at it's an iffy one for soulknives.

I appreciate what you're trying to do here, but I have to say that I really liked the beta version of the Soulknife. I've always been torn because I liked the soulknife thematically, but it was always such an inferior class, even in regular 3.5 D&D. So, attempting to play one in Pathfinder would just be silly.

So, when the beta Soulknife came out, I finally felt like someone made the class good. I understand that it might need some tweaking here and there, a little bit of refinement, major changes and the like do not interest me. If I hang around until the book is released and then find out that someone took a hatchet to the class, I think I'd rather just keep using the beta version and pass on the book.

Just throwing my two cents into the machine.

Cheers.

The major problem with the beta version of the soulknife was it was so darned overpowered. It made every other fighting class unemployed at a stroke. It had some fantastic ideas, but out-damaged ALL of them, except the paladin smiting an evil outsider (but that has huge limitations - the SK had none) over three rounds, and that isn't a good thing.

The play-tests and the number crunching all returned the same results: At equivelant level the SK-Beta delivered more damage over three rounds (more than any other class in round one, equal to most for rounds 2 and 3), had pretty similar AC and hit points.

I like this build. It's a lot cleaner than many other attempts. My one concern is that putting so many things as soulknife skills leads to choice overload. Maybe organize them into trees based on the three basic soulknife builds.

That was done originally in the alpha and beta, but I personally felt it constrained choice to much. I didn't want to lock a character into a particular fighting style, I felt the advantage to the soulknife was a little like the fighter - it's a grab-bag of abilities you tailor to taste, not like a ranger where there are specific 'builds' you follow.

In all fairness, there are feat chains, too.

Indeed yes, but taking one feat chain does not preclude taking others. I also take the point about skills overload - there are a LOT of possible blade skills, the quantity really needed to be slimmed down further.

I think slimming down is definitely in order. As it is, it reminds of that scene from Moscow on the Hudson, where Robin Williams' character, a recent Russian immigrant, is so overwhelmed at the sheer variety of coffee brands available that he passes out in the grocery store aisle.

Well, that's in the hands of DSP now, I see no more need to continue work on the gamma as they are working on the finalised soulknife. If I did, I would be trying to cut down the options, or at least hive some off to go into a supplementary volume later!