I'm going to start this new thread for any and all questions regarding this latest release, as there are bound to be plenty. I have one to start:

1) What is the reasoning behind making you pay initial XP for use and progression variable abilities, without actually gaining anything? As i understand it, in order to buy say Sneak Attack, i need to spend 180 XP to even have the ability, but i don't actually have 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, until i pay an additional 90 XP. That seems a little unfair and kind of pointless.

EDIT: For the sake of having a convenient place to find the CC Character Calculator, I'm putting it here in this post where it will appear at the bottom. You need to be logged in to view it and thus download it. But it is completely free. Please note the small "hints" in many of the cells that are there to help you understand what input the sheet is expecting. Also, the download contains two files, an Excel file for Office 2007 and and Excel file for Excel '97-'03. If you have any questions or comments on the sheet itself, please feel free to ask in this thread. Thank you!

NFL

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Lordmonkeysama wrote:

1) What is the reasoning behind making you pay initial XP for use and progression variable abilities, without actually gaining anything? As i understand it, in order to buy say Sneak Attack, i need to spend 180 XP to even have the ability, but i don't actually have 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, until i pay an additional 90 XP. That seems a little unfair and kind of pointless.

This is because of the nature of escalating cost for uses. Let me ask you this. Would you feel better paying 270 for sneak attack 1d6, 540 for sneak attack 2d6, 1080 for sneak attack 3d6, etc?

The way it is now, you pay 180 for the access to the ability. You then pay 90 for 1d6. Then you pay 180 for 2d6. You then pay 270 for 3d6. Ultimately the increasing costs are smaller - and much more in line with how much other abilities cost over the 20 levels of a character's life. The reason it is explain the way it is in CC is to demonstrate the progression.

The reality is that the math dictates that a 1st level ability should cost 270 XP. The math also dictates that the second use/improvement of that ability is 180 XP (Decreased because the you aren't gaining a new ability, just an improvement/additional use of an old ability). The third use/improvement is 270 XP. The fourth use/improvement is 360 XP. But this way ... you don't see a nice crisp pattern.

However, if I say you pay 180 for access, 90 for the first use, 180 for the second, 270 for the third ... the pattern is easily seen by anyone. The numbers are the same, the explanation is much easier to see this way.

EDIT: For the record, the same is true regarding magic/psionics. You buy access to manifester/caster/channel levels. But until you also buy powerpoints, power levels, spell slots, spell levels, and/or incantations the manifester /caster /channeler levels are pretty pointless.

EDIT2: There is a benefit from the player's perspective, too. It is a book-keeping benefit. On your character sheet, suppose you have this listed: "Sneak Attack: 270 XP." When you go to upgrade, you either have to look up the second progression cost for a first level variable ability or you have to remember that the second progression is 2/3 the cost of the ability. Then, you have to do the math.

However, if you make this notation: "Sneak Attack: Access 180 XP, 1st Progression 90 XP." Now, you know the progression value. The second progression costs 180 XP. The third progression costs 270 XP. The pattern is readily visible and by using this kind of notation you actually decrease the amount of times you need to reference the rules over the life of the character.

2) Since Psychic Strike is missing, and Assim has it, i attempted to price it out. However, i suck out loud at math, so i want to make sure this is correct:

Its a Progression Variable ability, gained at 3rd level, which means it costs an initial 340xp and to gain that first d8 would cost an extra 270xp for a total of 610xp needed to gain 1d8 Psychic Strike damage, correct?

3) Whats the cost break down for the Lurk Augment class feature?

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

2) Since Psychic Strike is missing I attempted to price it out. Its a Progression Variable ability, gained at 3rd level, which means it costs an initial 340xp and to gain that first d8 would cost an extra 270xp for a total of 610xp needed to gain 1d8 Psychic Strike damage, correct?

Close. The initial cost is 540 XP. But you are correct that the Psychic Strike Damage is 270 XP. These totals make it equivalent to the price of a Constant 3rd level ability: 810 XP. The chart you are looking for is on page 21 (document page, not pdf page).

For those looking for a way to check Progression/Use variable costs ... the sum of acces to a Progression/Use variable ability and its first use should equal the cost of a Constant ability of the same level. That is very intentional.

Also, LMS, in case you missed it there is a quick reference guide at the end of the document (document page 76). On that chart it shows the sum total for access and first use/progression. You might have seen that, but since this is an FAQ I wanted to make sure that the Quick reference guide is mentioned.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

3) Whats the cost break down for the Lurk Augment class feature?

The Lurk Augment feature (CPsi) is not OGL, so I'll avoid talking about its mechanics officially. However, I can say that it is a class ability that depends on class level. Thus, it is by definition priced as a level ability. (Initial 45 XP, increase as normal level-variable ability would do). Additionally, since this ability counts uses those uses are bought. Since it is a combination ability of Level/Use, those use the progression of 30 XP for the first use, 60 XP for the second use, etc...

yes, looking that over, i have no freakin idea where i got 340 from. best i can come up with is that i somehow merged the cost for a level 2 and a level 3 ability together, but i am almost positive that i had it right when i was adding up his XP spending.

Correct me if I am wrong. Say I want to buy a Manifester level, when I do so I must choose which class that Manifester level comes from (say Psion). That class determines the number of powers I have access to and from what list to pick them, correct?

(Side note, I must also buy access to each individual Power Level, that I know).

Angellis_ater wrote:

Say I want to buy a Manifester level, when I do so I must choose which class that Manifester level comes from (say Psion). That class determines the number of powers I have access to and from what list to pick them, correct? (Side note, I must also buy access to each individual Power Level, that I know).

Your understanding is completely correct. If you buy a manifester level in Psion (as per your example) you would be able to know as many powers as a 1st level psion would in a standard game. You would also gain the maximum level known (although that would still be 1 until you upgrade to manifester level 3). As you state, your character would not be able to use any of those powers until you have bought access to the desired Power Level and bought powerpoints to fuel the power.

EDIT: That choice for manifester/caster ability also chooses your primary casting/manifesting ability stat as well. Thus, if you pick Psion or Wizard you use INT. If you pick Wilder or Sorcerer, you use CHA. If you pick Cleric or Psychic Warrior you use WIS.

Great, in that case I've done it right (and my PbP character is updated) Thanks for a GREAT book that makes it fun and interesting to explore one's character,

Angellis_ater wrote:

Great, in that case I've done it right (and my PbP character is updated)

I'm reviewing it momentarily ... so follow the OOC thread for an update!

Also - as an aside (I'll edit the answer above) - that also chooses your primary casting/manifesting ability, too. Just like it would in astandard game. Thus, if you pick Psion or Wizard you use INT. If you pick Wilder or Sorcerer, you use CHA. If you pick Cleric or Psychic Warrior you use WIS. {I know your specific character is psionic, but I included the magic counterparts for clarity and thoroughness of the answer.}

Another question - if I take "Wild Surge" and "Psychic Enervation" - how many power points do I loose when I enervate?

Angellis_ater wrote:

Another question - if I take "Wild Surge" and "Psychic Enervation" - how many power points do I loose when I enervate?

Good question. This question is brought on by the fact that Psychic Enervation is a conterbalance - IE a penalty. It is one of the rare examples where an ability should be based off another ability. This is because nobody would buy levels in Psychic Enervation. However, this is where the GM of a game can assert some decision-making. In all cases, Psychic Enervation/Wild Surge would only be taken by a person with manifesting. So, you would use the manifester level of the ability being used.

That sounds very vague - and here's why. In setting up prerequisites, a DM very well could say that Wild Surge has a prerequisite of "Wilder manifesting." Thus, Wild Surge could only be used on Wilder powers. In this case, you would use the wilder manifester level.

However, in my games I open up Wild Surge to any type of psionic manifesting. That's why I stated it above as I did. Let me give an example:

Suppose there is a character out there with 8th level Psion manifesting and 10th level Society Mind manifesting. [I just picked those at random ... don't think too hard on why I picked them] If the character has Wild Surge, they might enervate after manifesting a Psion power. In this case they would be dazed until the next round and lose 8 pp out oftheir Psion pool. If they enervated on a Society Mind power, they would be dazed until the next round and lose 10 pp out of their Society Mind pool.

Part of the reason I made a big deal about prerequisites is because that is one of the balancing aspects of the game. CC does not include Wilder manifesting in the prereqs for the Wild Surge ability ... but DMs would be within their right to add that. But as the rules are written, you woud lose the amount of PP as the manifester level you have for a given class.

Might I enquire as to why? In all ways possible, this is the first instance were regular multiclassing is way better. If I have a Wilder 1/Egoist 9, I can use the Wild Surge with all powers (even egoist powers), but never loose more than 1 power point (my Wilder levels).

Angellis_ater wrote:

Might I enquire as to why? In all ways possible, this is the first instance were regular multiclassing is way better. If I have a Wilder 1/Egoist 9, I can use the Wild Surge with all powers (even egoist powers), but never loose more than 1 power point (my Wilder levels).

Well, not in all ways possible. In multiclassing, you have to actually take that level of Wilder. So ... you'd be getting 2 (plus any bonus) powerpoints, no help to BAB, FORT, REFL, and one power known. You get Wild Surge, +2 WILL, and the aforementioned 2 power points.

Instead, that 10th level of egoist +1 BAB, no FORT or REFL help, +1 WILL, a bonus feat, 16 powerpoints, 2 powers known.

Additionally, the egoist 10 and the egoist 9/wilder 1 can both manifest powers as though they are 10th level manifester. one spends 10 powerpoints each time with no possibility of losing points to Wild Surge while the other spends 9 powerpoints with the possibility of losing an additional 1. Given that there is a power point differential of 14 in favor of the egoist 10 ... that's essentially the same thing as Wild Surging 14 times without enervating.

Given the choice of all the above, in a standard game I'd take egoist 10 over the egoist 9/wilder 1 any day. Wild Surge just isn't worth it for 1 level.

Now ... to reflect that back onto CC. Also keep in mind that you are getting complete flexibility. You can have more power points than usual. You can take Wild Surge as an ability without also suffering from the serious lack of everything else the Wilder 1 receives.

Additionally, how else would you regulate it? You can't turn Psychic Enervation into a level based ability because nobody would buy it. I suppose you could make Wild Surge +1 have Psychic Enervation prereq, Wild Surge +2 have Psychic Enervation (3rd level), Wild Surge +3 have the prereq of Psychic Enervation (7th level). I suppose you could even give those levels away for free so that they are truly a check. But ... that solution isn't completely perfect.

The only true solution would be to merge Psychic Enervation with Wild Surge and make it a Level-Variable ability. You buy the ability level by level ... but receive no benefit from it except on the levels where you would normally gain a Wild Surge +X. That way you would have to increase your levels if you want more than Wild Surge +1.

The problemwith this is that now Wild Surge is an anomoly to almost every rule used to create the now merged ability. It's become the "grapple" of Complete Control. Nobody would ever remember how the pricing works and they'd have to look it up every time.

Of course, I'm open to suggestions. I just don't see why anyone would build an egoist 9/wilder 1 instead of an egoist 10. But ... it's also 1:45 AM my time, so I could be missing something, too.

Well, to me the solution seems simple, but you are correct in that it would become an anomaly in a way. Each +1 of Wild Surge would require a corresponding level of Psychic Enervation - however, since that one is free (0 cost) it's very simple. When you want Wild Surge +2, you need to take Psychic Enervation to 3rd level to.

Psychic Enervation and Magic Suspectability from Tome of Channeling are ALREADY exceptions to the rules of CC - in that they have no cost and are essentially drawbacks more than "class abilities".

Angellis_ater wrote:

Well, to me the solution seems simple, but you are correct in that it would become an anomaly in a way. Each +1 of Wild Surge would require a corresponding level of Psychic Enervation - however, since that one is free (0 cost) it's very simple. When you want Wild Surge +2, you need to take Psychic Enervation to 3rd level to.

For the record, I would completely suport this as the author of Copmplete Control. If youare looking to mimic a standard game as much as possible, this is the best answer. {If you're looking for a ruling regard Forays into Destruction, I'd be fine with it there, too...}

So I can take it that this is how it'll work in the PbP too?

So long as you are willing to concretely tie in each improvement in Wild Surge with an level of Psychic Enervation so that when enervation happens you lose an amount ofpowerpoints equal to the Psychic Enervation level, that's fine with me.

Yeah, wasn't that what we just agreed was the most logical progression? When I raise Wild Surge, I automatically raise Psychic Enervation to a certain level and it is PE levels which determine the amount of power points I'd loose.