Lordmonkeysama wrote:

Couple of questions: in book of 9 swords your Initiator level is epual to whatever class u have that grants maneuvers plus half of your other class levels. Im not sure if this is rendered pointless with CC, but if not how would u suggest replicating it?

I wouldn't even try replicating it. If maneuvers are a level-based ability ... then a character has less levels than their character level by choice. If they intentionally didn't buy max levels, let the player deal with it. It's a point where you say to the player, "CC offers you ultimate flexibility. Since class goes away, if you want full levels in an ability, then buy it." After all, that's why abilities can be bought to any desired level. The difference between this and the psicrystal is that the psicrystal is a feat. If the psicrystal were a class ability, we wouldn't be having the above discussion about the psicrystal, either.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

Also while i know ur not a fan of Epic NLF many are and im wondering how easy it would be to continue to use CC on past level twenty. Being thats it math based my guess is that it shouldnt be too hard.

My experience with Epic level games is poor at best. I would simply recommend extrapolating the charts by using the progressions. Since XP gained continues to follow a normal progression, the numbers should work out. But I can't say that they will ... because I personally have no desire to do so. But there's no reason you can't take all the charts and add another 15, 20, or however many levels onto the end of them.

This is one reason why CC is different than Buy the Numbers (a great product that caused me to think about doing CC). A few of Buy the Numbers progressions are based on quadratic functions. While quadratic functions can be used with linear for a while and still make sense, there comes a point that it breaks down because the math does. CC is designed to be as linear as possible. So, expanding it infinately should be possible - with minor modifications if something begins to show brokenness.

I'll put this disclaimer on that, though. I don't like Epic at all. I have little experience with it. So everything I say above is solely based on my opinion, not actual gameplay experience.

As for giving anything for free, I always advice against that. Giving anything for free is whatstarts the power creep. So I would never do that regardless of whether characters get anything for free in a standard game. I can't believe the math would ever support getting anything for free.

Jaid: I would see no problem with a table house rule that turns Psicrystal into a class ability (a la wizard's familiar). In that case, a Soulknife could essentially buy psicrystal levels for the same cost of manifester levels. However, I would not allow the two to be used in the same character, either. In that houserule case, I would let characters either get it through the feat and thus use manifester levels or I would let them have it as a class ability. Thoughts?

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

I would see no problem with a table house rule that turns Psicrystal into a class ability (a la wizard's familiar). In that case, a Soulknife could essentially buy psicrystal levels for the same cost of manifester levels. However, I would not allow the two to be used in the same character, either. In that houserule case, I would let characters either get it through the feat and thus use manifester levels or I would let them have it as a class ability. Thoughts?

Well, I like the clarity of having just one meter to govern what a crystal can do (as I always thought of them as familiars (only better, because they, at least, have a fluff justification) anyway), but I also like to have a "side-effect" when I purchase MLs... (even if it costs a feat)

In the end, I think I like the familiar approach better, because I think feat slots are the most important thing in the game (as it's used to give options to your character), so anything that can be worked around without buying a feat is golden.
This bias is perhaps no longer true with CC...

=A=

Asurya wrote:

In the end, I think I like the familiar approach better, because I think feat slots are the most important thing in the game (as it's used to give options to your character), so anything that can be worked around without buying a feat is golden. This bias is perhaps no longer true with CC...

Actually, from a cost-analysis perspective it benefits the psion and the wilder both to have it as a feat rather than a level-based ability. To build a psion and/or a wilder straigh up as presented in the SRD/XPH the character would have selected 12 or fewer feats over the course of the character. All of those feats would have individually cost less than the sum total spent on a level-based ability (5,745 XP). So it wouldn't matter to that character when they got a psicrystal, it would be best for them to take it as a feat rather than an ability.

The only character that would benefit from having it as a feat than an ability isa character who plans on buying more than 12 feats over the course of their life. While that is certainly more possible in CC ... I have found that feats actually get purchased less often in CC games because class ability variety is just so darn cool. But that last bit there is just my experience, not necessarily proof of what I say.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

Couple of questions: in book of 9 swords your Initiator level is epual to whatever class u have that grants maneuvers plus half of your other class levels.

I'd like to return to this question as I am familiarizing myself with Bo9S in anticipation of doing that article next. The answer I gave before still stands. A character gaining maneuvers from buying the class ability of a particular class would simply use that purchased ability level as the level needed. If they want a higher level, then they buy it. There is no need to count half of anything else.

However, as I read through Bo9S I am seeing that I need to append that in the case of a character who gains access to maneuvers without buying them through class abilities. The easiest example is someone who buys access to a maneuver of stance through a feat. In that case, Bo9S says to use half of the character level as their initiator level. I think that ruling simply transfers to CC. A character buying a feat that grants access to maneuvers/stances uses half their character level as though it were an ability level for the purchased feat. Those of you that know Bo9S much better than I - this make sense, yes?

Yeah, it makes sense. However, if possible I'd look at pricing the level-dependant Maneuvers slightly differently since you can pick up one level of Swordsage after 10 levels of Warlock and have access to 3rd level Maneuvers.

In answer to LMS' Bo9S question ...

Jaid wrote:

being a maneuverer-type-person is going to be a level variable ability. it will start at level 1. when you buy the ability to maneuver, you buy it as a specific class - warblade, swordsage, etc.

This is where I started, because it simply just made a lot of sense. And it worked, but I wasn't happy with the results. Then a brainstorm hit me. Treat it not like spellcasting, but like a level variable ability and a progression variable. The only problem is that in CC when a progression variable gets combined with the level variable the progressions increase by (30 x level) rather than (90 x level). But, since this is a new mechanic, itmakes sense that occasionally new mechanics are going to be added to CC to accomodate. In general, though, I am pleased with what I've done. Hopefuly I'll be submitting the article today. Once submitted, it can be posted whenever.

I will note. My results come out with the following result. The swordsage is the most powerful in terms of versatility (and thus costs the most to build). Looking at the work - and having never played a Bo9S class - I think that makes sense. Anyway, like I said ... results may be submitted sometime today.

Well, initiator levels have less influence then caster levels. Caster levels have a big influence on saves (spell resistance) and direct damage scaling. Initiator level mostly only decide your highest potential maneuver level.

Damage of maneuvers do *not* scale except in a few maneuvers, and even then in minor ways (like burning blade maneuvers of the Desert Wind school, which get +1/level damage). The Swordsage specific schools (like Desert Wind) have more spell-like effects, but are limited by the full-around refreshing of a single maneuver.

I believe DC (again, for a few maneuvers) is based solely on the maneuver level as well, not initiatior level. (have to check when I get back home).

Again, I like to say that each class has *specific* schools that only they can learn (warblade has iron heart, crusader has the holy school and swordsage has shadow, fire ,etc). There also schools that can be shared among the classes.

I can speak from experience, that if you combine refresh-method of Warblade with Swordsage schools, you can get some overpowered battles. The exclusive schools are pretty powerful (Iron Heart has certainly some of the best abilities like Iron Heart Surge and Desert Wind got a lot of AoE-like attacks).

So I was wondering how you would bring that into CC..but thinking about it now,..I guess you simply buy levels Swordsage Initiator levels or Warblade Initiator Levels, instead of splitting them all up in seperate properties. (instead of buying "generic maneuver levels").

Angellis_ater wrote:

Yeah, it makes sense. However, if possible I'd look at pricing the level-dependant Maneuvers slightly differently since you can pick up one level of Swordsage after 10 levels of Warlock and have access to 3rd level Maneuvers.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. In a standard game if a 10th level Warlock took the Martial Study and then the Martial Stance feat, wouldn't they be equivalent to a 5th level Martial Adept with respect to manuevers and stances? CC would work the same way.

EDIT: Nevermind ... I see what you are saying. In a standard game a character could be a Warlock 10/Swordsage 1 and get 3rd level maneuvers because they would essentially be a Swordsage 6 for determining their level with respect to access to maneuvers and stances.

In Complete Control, however, there is no need for this. Since there is no class, if a person wants to be thought of as a Swordsage 6 then they would spend the XP to boost their "Swordsage Ability" to 6th level and be done with it.

Querente wrote:

So I was wondering how you would bring that into CC..but thinking about it now,..I guess you simply buy levels Swordsage Initiator levels or Warblade Initiator Levels, instead of splitting them all up in seperate properties. (instead of buying "generic maneuver levels").

Exactly. You buy something like "Swordsage Ability." That allows you to use Swordsage Mechanics exactly like the real game up to whatever level you bought. If a character buys "Swordsage Ability" and "Warblade Ability" then each maneuver uses the mechanics of the ability that grants it. So, for example (and please forgive me if I mispeak, because my Bo9S-fu is weak): The Iron Heart you spoke of above issolely riven by the levels you purchased in "Warblade Ability." If a person had additional purchases in "Swordsage Ability" it would essentially be irrelevant with respect to the Iron Heart you speak of. In that respect, there would be no mixing of different classes' mechanics. A character could have both mechanics if they wanted them, but each set ofmechanics would only work with respect to the ability that grants them access to the maneuver/stance. Am I making sense? I hope so.

It isnt quite right. Both Swordsage and Warblade levels would count fully toward your total initiator level used for *both* maneuvers types (warblade and swordsage).

Except you can't choose maneuvers from one school if you buy (and the refresh with it) swordsage or warblade-initiator levels. You buy warblade-ability, so you get warblade maneuver with the warblade refresh, but you still have already more initiator levels if you had chosen swordsage before.

So if I buy 4 Swordsage abilities, my initiator level would start at 4 when I buy my first warblade ability (meaning I can start buying level 2 warblade maneuvers, although I still need the prerequisites (a low level maneuver normally)

Rather than write up the article I thought I would double check my thought on the mechanics with you all. So, here's the easy Bo9S conversion. If these look good, then I'll write up the article.

1. Any character can buy martial character can buy Martial Adept levels. When doing so, they must specify which Adept class their levels will mimic for game-mechanics purposes. A character buy more than one martial adept ability, but each class is considered seperate interms of mechanics. These levels are purchased as a Level-Variable according to the rules of CC.


2. Maneuvers are purchased using the following progression: (# of maneuver)*(90 XP). So, a character's first maneuver would cost 90 XP. A character's second maneuver wouldcost 180 XP.


3. Stances cost double what maneuvers do. So, a character's first stance costs 180 XP. A character's second stance costs 360 XP.


4. Maneuvers and stances are bought under each ability. Thus, when a maneuver is purchased it is linked to a specific Martial Adept ability (Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade). This is just natural, because maneuvers/abilities have prerequisite levels that must be met.


5. Maneuvers can only be purchased if the character has bought enough levels in an ability to qualify for them.


6. And the specified character and/or ability(class) levels, maneuvers may be swapped out as in a standard game. Thus, a class that allows a character to swap outone maneuver for another at fifth level would be allowed to do the same thing one the player purchased the 5th ability level for that class.

[EDIT: I don't have any rules governing maneuvers that could potentially be governed by two seperate classes. As an example, what about a character with Swordsage Ability 2nd level and Warblade Ability 2nd level who has the Action Before Thought maneuver. Should they be allowed to use either set of mechanics when that maneuver is in question or should they be forced to pick a particular Ability that the maneuver is tied to and thus that maneuver is always either a Swordsage or a Warblade maneuver for them (Rule #4 hints at this)? The upside to being forced to pick is that it naturally implies that maneuvers ad stances bought under different abilities should count under different progression. So, a character would pay 90 XP for their first Warblade maneuver and 90 XP fortheir first Swordsage maneuver. That's a nice perk, and I think a very fair trade-off. /EDIT]

How do those rules sound? They should be easy to implement, that's for sure. As far as pricing out a character goes ... I'll warn anyone tryin to use the rules that 1st level characters come out looking miserable (especially swordsages) because they are front-loaded with maneuvers so heavily. However, after a few levels things start to level out and by the "sweet spot" of gaming they are following a beautiful power-curve.

So I guess it will be like this then:

Warblade Ability: You gain +1 initiator level and may choose 1 maneuver from the warblade schools (assuming you have the prerequisites)) Like all warblade maneuvers, it can be refresh uing the warblade-refresh action. Every 4 warblade abilities levels you have bought, you gain 1 stance.

Sworsage Ability: You gain +1 initiator level and may choose 1 maneuver from any of the swordsage schools. Every 3 swordsage abilities, you may gain a new stance from the same schools.

I guess stances might be seperate buys..but well, it is still a maneuver from the list, even if the classes seperate them from other maneuvers.

Ofcourse, the first level of each ability gives more then 1 ability and stance if you look at the classes.

EDIT: This post of mine was before I saw the previous post of yours. Your rules are fine, except it doesnt consider initiator level which is part of the requirements for higher level maneuvers.

Querente wrote:

It isnt quite right. Both Swordsage and Warblade levels would count fully toward your total initiator level used for *both* maneuvers types (warblade and swordsage). Except you can't choose maneuvers from one school if you buy (and the refresh with it) swordsage or warblade-initiator levels. You buy warblade-ability, so you get warblade maneuver with the warblade refresh, but you still have already more initiator levels if you had chosen swordsage before. So if I buy 4 Swordsage abilities, my initiator level would start at 4 when I buy my first warblade ability (meaning I can start buying level 2 warblade maneuvers, although I still need the prerequisites (a low level maneuver normally)

Hmmm, either I'm missing something or the concept of class is still getting in the way. The name of the class taken at each level is fairly irrelevant. If I have a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 in a standard game, I could replicate it precisely by having a character with Swordmage Ability 2nd level (for a whopping 75 XP) and Warblade Ability 2nd level (for another whopping 75 XP).

{Note that I'm not talking about 2 Swordmage abilities ... I'm talking about an ability called "Swordmage Ability" that is the functional equivalent of something like manifester level for psionics. It is an ability that governs how high a level maneuver can be bought/used}.

Back on topic... That would grant the character the ability to use Warblade manuevers/stances and Swordsage maneuvers/stances at 2nd level. It isn't like it costs more experience, because you save in other areas (like being able to buy the saves you want, the BAB increase you want, etc) So the ability for class levels to stack fully or only as half I am not at all concerned about. CC intentional removes class labels like that for all other classes so that people can buy their way into the level they desire.

Querente wrote:

So I guess it will be like this then: Warblade Ability: You gain +1 initiator level and may choose 1 maneuver from the warblade schools (assuming you have the prerequisites)) Like all warblade maneuvers, it can be refresh uing the warblade-refresh action. Every 4 warblade abilities levels you have bought, you gain 1 stance. Sworsage Ability: You gain +1 initiator level and may choose 1 maneuver from any of the swordsage schools. Every 3 swordsage abilities, you may gain a new stance from the same schools.

Almost ... you can buy as many maneuvers as you want to throw XP at. You "Ability Level" is only good for the level of maneuver the particular character can use (as well as any variable effects within the ability that depend on class level).

Querente wrote:

I guess stances might be seperate buys..but well, it is still a maneuver from the list, even if the classes seperate them from other maneuvers.

Absolutely! Now you're getting the idea!

Querente wrote:

EDIT: This post of mine was before I saw the previous post of yours. Your rules are fine, except it doesnt consider initiator level which is part of the requirements for higher level maneuvers.

Couldn't initiator level=class ability level purchased? If not, why not?

Class ability level does indeed equal Initiator Level in this case.

BTW, the rules sound good.

Having not purchased this book yet, seeing this discussion makes me very excited about it. I love the free-form mixing of of classes, and it really makes me want to make a morphean/soulknife/soul bastion with some astral construct summoning (nightmare construct).

In other words, a warrior that uses no equipment but what he forms into reality from his own mind, including his own little nightmare helpers. I get the shivers just thinking about playing something so awesome.

This might just be my next purchase. (once I'm done buying my house)

(Sorry to derail the thread, but the talk of Bo9S will always get my attention)

dumas_drift wrote:

Having not purchased this book yet, seeing this discussion makes me very excited about it. I love the free-form mixing of of classes, and it really makes me want to make a morphean/soulknife/soul bastion with some astral construct summoning (nightmare construct).

Having not tried that exact build, I can confidently say that it is certainly possible. Especially if you think about being able to do the Soulknife schtick either through class abilities or through feats via the DSP: Soulknife work. So whenever you're ready for it ... it waiting to be done.

dumas_drift wrote:

(Sorry to derail the thread, but the talk of Bo9S will always get my attention)

Well, the Bo9S article has been submitted, so you should also be able to be excited about the fact that the conversions have already been done for you when you do get around to getting Complete Control. I eagerly await your purchase and review of the work should you be inclined to give a review if even here as a post. As always, thanks for your interest!

got a pair of questions: 1) how should one price out class variations or racial substitutions? would u even use CC for racial substitutions? some of these are pretty easy, being already existing class features or similar enough to them. however a fair amount are a little more off teh beaten path as it were and sometimes are more powerful than standard features of the same level as u often give stuff up. which brings me to my next question: should one take into account the power of an ability when pricing it

continuation of the above post: ie some abilities, especially from PrCs are a lot more powerful than not only regular class features but also vs other PrCs. should one factor that in when setting an XP price or the prerequisites?

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

got a pair of questions: 1) how should one price out class variations or racial substitutions? would u even use CC for racial substitutions? some of these are pretty easy, being already existing class features or similar enough to them. however a fair amount are a little more off teh beaten path as it were and sometimes are more powerful than standard features of the same level as u often give stuff up.

You certainly can use CC for them, and I would. I would price them according to these two criteria (order may vary depending on the ability):

1. Earliest level the racial substitution can be gained


2. Comparable ability or comparable power to another class if one exists

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

which brings me to my next question: should one take into account the power of an ability when pricing it

Absolutely. I think CC says as much in the document if I am not mistaken. Pricing should begin with the level in which it is gained. However, if that proves to be unbalancing, then bump the price up. I would seldom (if ever) balance CC by lowering the price than the value granted by the earliest level accessable, though. If in doubt, bump the price of other abilities up before you decrease a single ability.