About the ToB article, there still is a concern that needs to be addressed if I read it right: what's the impact of purchasing several progression have on one another? If I read it right, as it is the answer is a flat "none" whereas the original book had a global rule for that.

Querente wrote:

It isnt quite right. Both Swordsage and Warblade levels would count fully toward your total initiator level used for *both* maneuvers types (warblade and swordsage).

Even if this is false (they would not fully count), the principle remains.
Disregarding PrCs, there are 3 initiator level, each of them defined as such (let L be your character level):
- Crusader IL = Crusader level + (L - Crusader level)/2
- Swordsage IL = Sworsage level + (L - Swordsage level)/2
- Warblade IL = Warblade level + (L - Warblade level)/2

so if you buy L4 in Swordsage (for 225XP) and then buy L2 in Warblade (for 75XP), you should be able to purchase a "rank 2" Warblade maneuver (as you are IL5 from a Warblade standpoint) it's not that clear from what I read.

Besides, I did not understand why this had to be different form the "buy your governing level and access to the Nth rank" thing of the caster. If I buy L1 in Swordsage initiating, I should get the 6 maneuvers known, 4 readied and the stance, just as buying L1 in Psion manifesting get me 2 powers known... Put that way, I agree it seems more powerful though
Where am-I mistaken? (I'm not against the introduction of a new rule and I certainly like the fine tuning allowing buying only stances for example, but then why couldn't I buy powers known in the same way when I purchased these <any manifester> levels?)

Also I couldn't find what governs the readying of known maneuvers.

(And I really need to pay closer attention to the rest of the forum as this is nearly 3 weeks cold )

=A=

Asurya wrote:

About the ToB article, there still is a concern that needs to be addressed if I read it right: what's the impact of purchasing several progression have on one another? If I read it right, as it is the answer is a flat "none" whereas the original book had a global rule for that.

Well, perhaps the problem is that I'm not completely familiar with ToB. But here's my reason for the flat "none" answer:

ToB has those rules specifically because if it didn't have those rules you could not multiclass if you wanted to have the highest powered maneuvers possible. That would essentially create the exact same conundrum as spellcasting/manifesting already has. The gaming community hates multi-classing rules because of what it does to spellcasting/ caster level/ spell power. [And to be fiar, CC was largely designed because of this problem] So, WotC put these rules in ToB because there is no other mechanic in a standard game that would allow initiator level to increase if a player wanted to multiclass. Essentially, the rule for allowing half-class levels (and full class levels for ToB classes) is in there in order to make multiclassing not-so-painful.

But, CC was designed to make multiclassing extremely less painful to begin with. If you want a full warblade initiator level, then buy it! If you want a full swordsage initiator level, then buy that as well!

A fair analogy to this is why CC does not mimic the standard game's penchant for having class abilities that mimic feats. In CC, if you want a feat you have to buy a feat rather than being able to buy an ability that grants you the feat. If you allow things like that, you open up places for abuse in CC because people can play with the numbers and buy things at prices which they aren't intended to be bought. So, CC automically disregards class abilities that provide feats. In the same way, CC ignores the rule that grants a boost to initiator level for free.

Here's another way of thinking about it. If CC would allow initiator levels from other classes to stack, why would anyone ever buy more than 10 levels in any Bo9S class? A character buys 10 levels of Swordsage, 10 levels of Crusader, and 10 levels of Warblade and altogheter they've paid 4,185 XP (1,395 x3). But, by ToB standards they shoud have an initiator level of 20 for all three abilities, right? After all, 10 + (20/2) = 20, right? So ... they've just bought initiator level in all three ToB classes for more than 1,500 XP less than they could have bought an initiator level 20 in one class alone.

The reality is that CC is designed with the purpose of making multiclassing possible and painless. In doing so, there are many advantages that are inherently gained. To allow anything for free is going to not only unbalance the game without trying ... but really unbalance the game when the players learn how to abuse what they get for free!

I suppose it would be possible to take what yousay above and use the following:

Initiator Level = Ability Level + (Character Level - Ability Level)/2.

Thus, a 10th level character who has bought 6 levels of Swordsage Ability would have 6 + (10-6)/2 = 8 levels. But in CC, I would still consider this unbalanced. To take the most extreme case - and to use even number to make the math easier - take a 20th level character who bought Warblade Ability level 2. They've spent 75 XP, but this rule would treat them as having initiator level 11. From a CC perspective, they've been allowed to spend 75 XP and get the benefit of an ability that should have cost 1,695 XP. That's like letting someone get 1,620 XP worth of character stuff for free! Is that fair to a character building with non-Bo9S abilities?

There are enough advantages gained in CC as it is. To give anything for free in a system that allows a character to be designed to this depth of specialization is normally not a good idea at all. It is not my recommendation to allow this to happen at all.

EDIT: {Sorry, I forgot to include this...}

Asurya wrote:

Besides, I did not understand why this had to be different form the "buy your governing level and access to the Nth rank" thing of the caster. If I buy L1 in Swordsage initiating, I should get the 6 maneuvers known, 4 readied and the stance, just as buying L1 in Psion manifesting get me 2 powers known... Put that way, I agree it seems more powerful though Where am-I mistaken? (I'm not against the introduction of a new rule and I certainly like the fine tuning allowing buying only stances for example, but then why couldn't I buy powers known in the same way when I purchased these <any manifester> levels?)

As to the reason, it s because the power of the caster manifesteris notin the powers known but in how often they can use them. IE, the power of a caster and manifester is really in their slots and power points. Sure, a caster with more spells known is more versatile than one with fewer. I won't argue that. But what really makes a caster/manifester useful is how often their power can be tapped. Thus, the extra price comes in buying uses in the form of spell slots and/or power points.

With ToB, this is not an option. You can use them when they are readied, and there is a build in mechanic as to how often that happens. So it isn't possible to balance maneuvers with the amount of times that they can be used. To balance it, I had to take one step back. I had to balance it by changing the cost of maneuvers/stances. And, like you said ... it does give added flexibility.

If the systems were the same, they could be priced the same. But they aren't the same, so they had to be priced diferently. Sorry!

All I can say is - well said! And I agree. Complete Control is more than flexible enough to cover this.

Don't feel sorry! Your explanation make perfect sense: I just forgot about the refresh-for-free thing which cannot be priced.

One question remains though: how do you purchase readied method "slots"?
I understand you use the ability-related way of refreshing them, but how much cost a slot? (because it would be silly to give them for free along the purchase of ability level, as you have to pay for each maneuver (or stance, but that is easier 'cause everyone has one and only one "stance slot" for free) known, and therefore could lead to having more readied slots than maneuver known)

=A=

I'm not sure I understand your question. So, I'll answer it generically and hope I get thew answer anyway.

Steps:

1. You buy access to the specific ability using level-variable table. So, 45 XP forthe first level, 75 XP for the next, etc. This number gives you your initiator level.


2. You buy as many maneuvers/stances as you want. Each maneuver costs 90 XP times the new number of maneuvers you have. Each stance costs 180 XP times the new number of stances you have.


3. Then, you use whatever you've bought. There is no number of slots to fill. You just buy however many you want at any given time.

Crusaders, warblades, swordsages follow the same rules per level for numbers of maneuvers readied at the beginning of a battle and when they refresh. If a character should get four maneuvers at the begining and they only bought three so far, their loss. They get all three ready and can use them just the same as they had four.

Does that help? If not, can you point specifically to a page # and rule so that I can be more specific?

Well, as I didn't understand your reply either, I guess we are even!

Seriously though, ToB revolves around 4 things:
1/ maneuvers known,
2/ maneuvers readied (with 2 ⊂ 1)
3/ stances known
4/ Initiator level

1, 3, and 4 are taken care of in what you posted so far, 2 however is not.

NLF wrote:

Crusaders, warblades, swordsages follow the same rules per level for numbers of maneuvers readied at the beginning of a battle and when they refresh. If a character should get four maneuvers at the begining and they only bought three so far, their loss. They get all three ready and can use them just the same as they had four.

I don't understand what you mean by that. Perhaps an example (or 3) is in order:
- Swordsage1(classful system): #(1)=6, #(2)=4, #(3)=1, 4=1
- CC to do the same: #(1)=6 {1890XP}, #(2)=4 {???}, #(3)=1 {180XP}, 4=1 {35XP}
is it clearer?

=A=

Depending on which type of Blade Magic you choose defines the Number of Readied Maneuvers and how to refresh them.

Okay ... perhaps an example is in order.

Let's take the Crusader. At the first level, the Crusader has as many maneuvers known as the player bought. They have as many stances known as the player bought. As for the number of maneuvers readied, they get five readied maneuvers as per the chart. (If the player only bought access to four, then they only get four readied. Their loss!) Of the ones that are readied, two of them are granted access as described on p. 9 of ToB. At the end of the next round, they are granted access to another of their readied maneuvers as described on p. 9. Continue to follow the rules found on p. 9-10. Essentially, use your Crusader Ability level to determine how many maneuvers are readied and accessible.

Let's take the Swordsage. At Ability Level 1 the Swordsage has as many maneuvers and stances as they've bought. They get to ready 4 (unless they haven't bought 4, then they get to ready as many as they have bought). You get an additional readied maneuver at 3rd level, at 5th level, etc as per the chart on p. 16.

Now let's take the Warblade. They get as many maneuvers and stances as they have bought. As for maneuvers readied, they get 3 at Ability Level 1. They get 4 at Ability Level 4. Follow the chart on p. 21 to find the rest of progression.

As A_a says above, depending upon which "Blade Magic" (which I call Ability Level) you buy levels in depends on how you are allowed to refresh your abilities.

I'm pretty sure I can't explain it any more learly than that. If someone else can, please do. That pretty much has reached my limit of ToB knowledge in terms of actual game practice.

Ok, that's good for me.
In fact, when buying ability-level-priced-"blade magic", one really buy both an IL and the related "ready slots".
It just eluded me, because, with this system, one could possibly buy only stances and then have no need whatsoever for "ready slots" (although he would still need to improve his IL to buy higher level stances).

And, now something completely different:
I understand that, under CC, class-abilities-which-grant-(free)-feats need to go (you have to buy feats normally), but what of feat-which-grant-ability?
e.g.: Martial study and Martial Stance from ToB, or Shape soulmeld from MoI.

About this last book (Magic of Incarnum), another of your articles on it would be awesome if I may ask.

=A=

I would say that these feats follow their written rules, as is.

so, in the case of Martial study / Martial Stance, you would count as having a "virtual IL" of half character level for the purpose of selecting the maneuver / stance, correct?

=A=

Unless playtesting proved this to be unbalancing (which I doubt very much it would) I think that is an perfectly fine solution.

The reason that it would likely be alright for a feat to be bought (which provides an ability) but not for abilities to be bought (that provide feats) is because the feats scale in price which ability scores are locked in by level pricing. In the case where your 20th level character has about 10 or fewer feats you will win when buying a feat instead of the ability. But if your 20th level character has more than 10 feats you are actually paying more for the feat (and all those that come after it).

Thinking about picking this up but have a few questions

1. How easy would this be to use with something like E6 - would you simply put a buy cap on some things?

2. Is there a good/easy way to price things like Warlock abilities or the Druid wildshape from the players handbooks 2?

3. How about something like True Sorcery?

4. To create a character this way how long does it take the first time? and once you have done it a few times?

Thanks!

Thanks for your interest.

1. As for the E6, I have never played in an E6 game. However, I would expect that it would be very easy to convert. My suggestion is to play the game as normal until you reach the desired level (6, 9, 12, whatever). Once you reach htat point, only allow characters to use their XP to buy acceptable additions to the character. If I understand E6 correctly, once you reach the 6th level your character just improves by adding feats. That could easily carry over into a Complete Control game with minimal modification - I would assume.


2. As for pricing non-OGL abilities, the game is designed to be able to price such things out. Complete Control would be virtually useless to most games if only OGL pricings coud be used. To price out any ability you must be able to determine the following characteristics: Is it based on character level, number of uses per day/hour/week/encounter, a progression that increases as levels go up, or is it a static ability. If you can answer that question (and you can for the abilities you are concerned about) the abilities are easily converted to Complete Control.


3. I don't know True Sorcery at all, I am sorry to say. I do not know if this could be easily converted or not. I imagine I could develop a conversion for it (I have yet to find something I couldn't approximate fairly well), but I have not done so and have no access to True Sorcery as of this moment.


4. First time characters can usually be built in under an hour. With an Excel spreadsheet to make sure no math errors occur, I can create a character in 15 minutes maximum. Of course, this does not count for things like background, but that would be the same for any character being made regardless of the system.

I hope this helps.

NLF

EDIT: I want to expand on #4. In my experience, building characters varies depending on the level and complexity of the build. The higher the level and the more complex the build - the more time can be saved in Complete Control. The reason for this is that Complete Control eliminates the necessary pouring over resources that allows our character to get into that just-right PrC you want. In Complete Control you figure out the BAB, Saves, HP, etc that you want and then buy them. Then you buy the skills you want up to the level you want. (CC ignores class skills since CC ignores class). Then you buy your class abilities, feats, and magic if desired. And then bang - you're done. It really is that simple, and it simplifies the old complex builds that used to take several class switches to accomplish. It's designed to be simple (at the cost of having to tabulate experience spent, of course).

Regarding #4 I can share my experience with the system. With a 6-month year old in my lap and a calculator, it took me approx 50 minutes to write up my thoughtsinging-wilder-halo-knight Kizzt for the PbForum here. That was all "mechanical" creation and then I knew exactly what I wanted. Last 10 minutes were spent on fine-tuning, re-arranging stats & changing my mind

I have a question about Mindlock (Morphean ability) pricing under CC:
it's listed as a level/progression ability, I figured out the prices, but I couldn't find which of these two "gauges" governs what in the ability.
Mindlock has both a range and a save DC varying with the level, so is it:
a/ level for range, progression for save DC
b/ level for save DC, progression for range
c/ none of the above

Moreover, a Morphean11 can initiate a mindlock at range, but this is nested in the description (as opposed to Focused Mindlock for example). Is it the level or the progression which allow that? Or even need a separate pricing (as a constant ability with a prerequisite)?

=A=

i know the range of the worldthought nextwork when it changes from 30 feet to short to long etc is costed out separate from the level progression, so if it's all part of the same ability that would be my guess.

As I have come to expect, Jaid is correct in his "rules-fu."

The way that I saw it under the CC rules is that Mindlock is a Level/Progression Variable such that:

1. Mindlock ability and its saves are a level based variable. The initial cost is 225 XP as a 4th level Level Variable ability.


2. The range is a progression component within said ability. As such, it follows the rules where Progression and Level components come together. It's base price is 30 XP times the initial level, or 120 XP. That will give you a range of 30 ft. The next range is 60 ft, and that will cost 240 XP.


3. Focused Mindlock is a separate ability that is based on the Mindlock ability. This makes it a subordinate, much like the various Bardic Knowledge abilities are to the bard. Thus, when it is gained it would cost 420 XP XP at 14th level.

Make sense? Hopefully!

makes perfect sense, so it was b/ then!
Like I said, I figured out the math behind the cost but was wondering about the "progression" part.

My second question was because you stated out Focused mindlock in CC abilities section as a subordinate of Mindlock, but not the ability to initiate a mindlock at range.
One last question though, to be sure I got it perfectly right: where do you find the pricing rule of subordinate abilities?
It seems (from the various Bardic music related ones) to follow variable ability pricing, without taking the previous steps into account (thus 30*n instead of (3+n*(n-1))*15), is that it?

=A=

Asurya wrote:

My second question was because you stated out Focused mindlock in CC abilities section as a subordinate of Mindlock, but not the ability to initiate a mindlock at range.

Unless specifically stated in CC, that pricing is up to the DM. Personally, I would just make it part of the level progression. So, when you pay for the nth level (where n is the level of mindlock where you would get to to it at range) you automatically get that improvement. The reason I would do that is because in the greater scheme of things, this is not a vast improvement nor a big XP expenditure. However, if a DM thought that ruling unfair they are certainly within their rights to make it a subordinate ability. The XP expenditure is not going to make or break a character either way.

EDIT: For the record, the basic pricing for Mindlock is listed in CC on text page 51.

Quote::

One last question though, to be sure I got it perfectly right: where do you find the pricing rule of subordinate abilities?

Good question. Subordinate abilities follow the same exact pricing as as the "progression" part of a progression variable when attached to a Level Variable. The reason for this is that a subordinate variable is really mechanically identical to a progression variable attached to a level variable. The main difference is that many subordinates only contain 1 progression (like Focused Mindlink).

Because of this, they cost 30 XP times the minimum level that they can be acquired - as you suspect.