Nonlethal_Force thanks for answering my questions I haven't picked it up yet because I'm still batting a lot of things around. I'm hoping I'll figure out what I want to do in another month or so (waiting on something else I ordered - The Razor Coast). I also had one more question I meant to get on the list before and just spaced.

- How would costs be affected if you looked at Pathfinder as the base instead of 3.5. Would much change, would be be easy to work off both pretty easily?

I can tell you right off, that except for the XP totals used (these are based on OGL) it would translate perfectly. So if you use the same XP table, no worries.

Miar wrote:

Nonlethal_Force thanks for answering my questions I haven't picked it up yet because I'm still batting a lot of things around.

You are certainly welcome. I hope that when you do decide to pick it up that it pleases you!

Miar wrote:

How would costs be affected if you looked at Pathfinder as the base instead of 3.5. Would much change, would be be easy to work off both pretty easily?

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with Pathfinder. However, if Pathfinder is as similar to 3.5 as it sounds, it should translate fairly well. If they do use a different XP table, that is easy to fix - just use the one in 3.5. XP tables are just tools, they should be able to be swapped fairly readily.

I know this has been explained several times, but i have to say, the skill system is incredibly confusing. I'm not sure if its possible, or if it would've been to much of a hassle for you NLF, but i think if you just made a table which showed the XP cost for each rank per Int score that would make things a lot easier(what i mean is, if one has an Int of 12, you'd show how much each rank costs from 1-23[the max a skill can be at level 20].)

LMS,

Ummmm - it does, and for that very reason! Check out page 75. Granted, that chart is by INT Rating. But if you need help converting to Challenge Rating see page 9. Between those pages you shouldn't have to do any math at all.

Oh, and for the record, the reason it was sone by INT Rating and not INT Score is because 3.x has a few races that get a free skill rank per level. To make the chart inclusive, Sill Rating is used rather than INT Score. But with the conversion chart on page 9 it shouldn't be too hard.

When an ability lists a pre-req such as Refl +3 for Evasion, is that your base stat or your modified one?

I would say base, both because Rog2 (when they gain Evasion) have +3 base Ref and because prerequisites almost never used modified result (be it stat score, skill ranks, BAB, ...).

=A=

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

When an ability lists a pre-req such as Refl +3 for Evasion, is that your base stat or your modified one?

Ummm. I'm not sure I understand the options you present. So I'll answer it with the only way that I know. It means that you have purchased a REFL bonus of +3 regardless of what your DEX is. If you have a DEX of 18, you still have to buy 3 improvements to REFL save. So, that character ultimately has a REFL Save of +7. It works the same way as Prereqs for Prestige Classes - or at least how I have always understood how PrC prereqs work.

Good reasoning, Asurya. That is precisely spot-on.

I may have missed this, but is there a cost for buying more powers beyond those granted by your level?

you mean powers known? check the third dawn OOC thread =P

there isn't anything in CC, but NLF has introduced modified research rules =S

(other than that method, you're going to have to use the expanded knowledge feat... which gets expensive pretty quick).

Jaid wrote:

you mean powers known? check the third dawn OOC thread =P

Yeah, no doubt. You have access to this information already, LMS.

Jaid wrote:

there isn't anything in CC, but NLF has introduced modified research rules =S

For powers that do not currently exist in your class or other classes, of course.

Jaid wrote:

(other than that method, you're going to have to use the expanded knowledge feat... which gets expensive pretty quick).

Exactly. Pretty expensive and it is a feat that can't be used for other benefits, too.

NLF,
CC allows you to customize everything else about a character, what was made you keep this the same?

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

NLF, CC allows you to customize everything else about a character, what was made you keep this the same?

Because every variable that you leave open to change makes the system more complex. Buy the Numbers allows you to buy the number of known spells in addition to spell levels. But their casting system takes a degree to figure out. I wanted to improve upon it by making it a bit more simple.

Not only that, but if you make it so that each known spell costs a certain amount of XP, then what do you do with wizards/clerics? Do youmake them pay XP for each of their spells? If not, then how is it fair to make sorcerers pay for their known spells when they have less versatility to begin with?

In the end, I didn't want the productto get involved with that kind of logic. It is far simpler to tie it to the level of power intended in the game and leave it alone. But if youare looking for a personal houserule ... look to the OOC thread as Jaid recommended. There's a perfectly viable one there.

Alright, so I was reading on another forum about Complete Control and bought it. I like it a lot, and it really has a freeing aspect on the game. But... a lot of cool stuff (non core/SRD) stuff seems really hard to convert to CC pricing such as:

Warlock/Dragonfire Adept Invocations
(I've been making a level dependant variable "Warlock Invocation level" to determine the casters level when using invocations and then making players buy individual invocations as constant abilities)

Marshall/Dragon Shaman Auras/Aura Bonus
(No idea how to price these)

Any class from Magic of Incarnum (soulmelds/essentia/chakra binds)
(No Idea how to price these)

Any class from Tome of Magic (Binder/Shadowcaster/Truenamer)
(No Idea how to price these)

I guess any new system that doesn't follow a spells/psionics/channeling(not quite sure what this is) has to be priced out, I'm just not quite sure how to do so.

Is there some article or document or web expansion that I am missing that has more information in it? I see that the SRD Article for CC on this website has references to many classes/class features from other sources (such as the Dragon Disciple taking features from the Dragonfire Adept found in Dragon Magic); is there a place where more information is available?

bgbill wrote:

Alright, so I was reading on another forum about Complete Control and bought it. I like it a lot, and it really has a freeing aspect on the game.

Cool! And ... if I'm not mistaken, welcome to the forums!

bgbill wrote:

But... a lot of cool stuff (non core/SRD) stuff seems really hard to convert to CC pricing such as:

Very true. Much of it does seem difficult at first. But, if you are willing to work together, I'm pretty sure we can crack it. I might be wrong, but if it fits into a level it can usually be cracked somehow. ToB:Bo9S has been cracked. The Invocations of the Nexus class here from DSP has been cracked. Hopefully it can be done.

bgbill wrote:

Warlock/Dragonfire Adept Invocations (I've been making a level dependant variable "Warlock Invocation level" to determine the casters level when using invocations and then making players buy individual invocations as constant abilities)

That sounds fairly right ... and can I say that I'm impressed with your use of terminology! However, the pricing as a constant ability might be a little off. I've got these sources and some time ... let me or on it and I'll get a response back shortly (hopefully within a few hours).

bgbill wrote:

Marshall/Dragon Shaman Auras/Aura Bonus (No idea how to price these)

These aren't too bad. I'll work on these and get back to you when I get back to the prior point as well.

bgbill wrote:

Any class from Magic of Incarnum (soulmelds/essentia/chakra binds) (No Idea how to price these) Any class from Tome of Magic (Binder/Shadowcaster/Truenamer) (No Idea how to price these)

Unfortunately, I do not have these sources. So I won't be much help here. A basic description of the mechanics could help, although I understand its closed content nature.

bgbill wrote:

I guess any new system that doesn't follow a spells/psionics/channeling(not quite sure what this is) has to be priced out, I'm just not quite sure how to do so.

The way I do it is build it level by level with what can be (BAB< Saves, Feats, etc. Then I figure out how much is left over and try to find a progression that fits the class development and the expected levels. It's not an exact science ... usually. Oh, and channelling is an alternate magic system from the Tome of Channelling sold here at DSP (under the Mentalis Design logo).

bgbill wrote:

Is there some article or document or web expansion that I am missing that has more information in it? I see that the SRD Article for CC on this website has references to many classes/class features from other sources (such as the Dragon Disciple taking features from the Dragonfire Adept found in Dragon Magic); is there a place where more information is available?

Unfortunately, not yet. But ... if you do develop some progressions that work post them here. We can reformat them into articles and post them there for all to use!

Oh, and if you are interested we're developing an Excel Spreadsheet to help calculate expenditures in games where people may not care for math or might just prefer to let the computer do all the calculations.

bgbill wrote:

Warlock/Dragonfire Adept Invocations (I've been making a level dependant variable "Warlock Invocation level" to determine the casters level when using invocations and then making players buy individual invocations as constant abilities)

Okay ... if we can go for a moment on the fact that the Dragonfire Adept and the Warlock are reasonably balance if not a touch on the weaker side ... then these prices should do you right. Mind you, they are going to look expensive compared to the progression variable/level variable model. But, invocations are at-will abilities that are often quite useful. So, their cost is worth it. Anyway, here's how I would price it out:

Access to Warlock Invocations (Just like access to spell levels) would be priced as follows:
Least (60 XP), Lesser (1060 XP), Greater (3060 XP), Dark (6060 XP). {If the 60 bothers you, you can drop it and make them even thousands}

To actually buy an invocation of a particular level I would suggest the following:
Least (500 XP), Lesser (2000 XP), Greater (4500 XP), Dark (8000 XP).

So as an example, in a standard game an 11th level Warlock has just earned their 7th invocation that could be a least, lesser, or greater. In a CC game, if they want to buy a greater invocation for 4500 XP, they could do so only if they had already bought access to least, lesser, and then greater invocations for a cumulative total of 4180 XP.

I know these prices seem rather steep, but it's actually alright. Using these prices and calculating the rest of the Warlock ability prices it works out to 177,611 XP total.

If we look at the Dragonfire Adept, these pricings would work out to a total of 183,852 XP. But, this is just a first glance at these....

bgbill wrote:

Marshall/Dragon Shaman Auras/Aura Bonus (No idea how to price these)

I don't ave the Marshall, but I do have the Dragon Shaman. The problem with the Dragon Shaman is that they received so many so early and then are done receiving auras by midgame. That makes pricing them tough. Here's my first thought, but I'll tell you that I'm not happy with it.

Access to Auras would cost:
1st (100 XP), 2nd (200 XP), 3rd (300 XP), 4th (750 XP), 5th (1500 XP), 6th (2250 XP), 7th (3000 XP). {The reason you don't see a pattern in the first few is because the Dragon Shaman gets three at first level ... totally messing it up.}

For the Aura Bonus, I would just price it out as a 1st level Progression Variable.

The reason that I'm not happy with this is that if you build a 20th level Dragon Shaman you only spend 155,041 XP. This puts it priced as a fairly weak character overall. I'm not sure that it is quite that weak of a class. I'll do a bit more thinking on this one.

bgbill wrote:

Warlock/Dragonfire Adept Invocations (I've been making a level dependant variable "Warlock Invocation level" to determine the casters level when using invocations and then making players buy individual invocations as constant abilities)

Okay, I'm going to give a second perspective on this question and let it sit for a little. I can see the value of both solutions, but I am leaning towards this one right now.

Access to Warlock Invocations (Just like access to spell levels) remains the same:
Least (60 XP), Lesser (1060 XP), Greater (3060 XP), Dark (6060 XP). {If the 60 bothers you, you can drop it and make them even thousands}


Actual Invocations cost (600 XP)(Number of Invocation being purchased). So, the character's first Invocation costs 600 XP, then 1200 XP, then 1800 XP, etc.

As a comparison of the ending XP results, The Drasgonfire Adept tops out at 175,452 total XP while the Warlock tops out at 178,911 total XP. I like those numbers. You've obviously got some experience with the classes, bgbill. What do you think?

---

Here are the pros and cons of each system. First, the suggestion that I put up first with constant level prices. The pro is that it takes into account the level of the invocation being purchased. So you can load up on cheaper ones if you want. They're less powerful, but you are more versatile. The con is that the price jumps are steep.

Now, the alternate suggestion I just posted here. The pro is that the cost increments are much more subtle and maneagable. The con is that the pricing only cares how many invocations you've already bought regardless of their actual level.

I prefer the second method. A lot of the invocations are utility based, so the more of them you have, the better you are. Plus, many of the dark invocations are kind of "meh". You'd think they would be awesome, but in my experience they really aren't that good. I'd gladly drop one dark invocation for 4 lesser ones or a greater and 2 lesser, at least for a Warlock.

I assume that you are keeping a "Warlock/DFA Caster Level" in order to set a level for spell resistance/dispel checks, as well as for invocations where caster level matters (like Draconic Toughness).

the second approach is closer to the original class: you can pick a lower grade invocation with a slot, only the number of invocation known matters (much like choosing a psionic power known)

BUT I like the first better. I don't care about steep gaps, I like when low-level (grade) stuff is priced less than high-level one.

Anyway, taking feat progression as an example, I "fear" the second is better as far as balance goes. Invocations (even least ones) are really useful, even at higher level.

=A=

The marshall is from the miniatures handbook and gets minor and major auras at different times. Here's a link to the class on Wizard's website.

www.wizards.com/defaul.../20030906b