Okay, so over on ENWorld Andreas mentioned that the Complete Rules will likely get into a compendium. {Which, may I add, would rock. And if they go into PoD ... that would rock mightily} But, should they go to a compendium it really makes sense to do all the Complete stuff that can be done first. Seeing in the other threads the interest regarding Complete Races, I'm inclined to try and work something out in that regard. However, I've promised True Control to Andreas and it is close enough to being done that True Control will get finished from my end before I even begin work on Complete Races. So that's where that stands.

But, in getting the ball moving, I would like to ask for a bit of assistance to anyone willing to write up a bit of a note. I have access to MM1, PHB, XPH, and all DSP works. Anyone else desiring to throw a WotC race onto the pile is appreciated. If the work is OGC, feel free to post the race stats here in this thread and I'll take it into account. If it isn't OGC, please don't post it here. If you would like me to include the race in the research for the work, PM me for alternatives.

But once I can get True Control polished off, I'll probably begin research on this work. With any luck, that won'tbe too long from now.

Okay, I wanted to go over some things that I didn't quite understand from before.

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

But, in getting the ball moving, I would like to ask for a bit of assistance to anyone willing to write up a bit of a note. I have access to MM1, PHB, XPH, and all DSP works. Anyone else desiring to throw a WotC race onto the pile is appreciated. If the work is OGC, feel free to post the race stats here in this thread and I'll take it into account. If it isn't OGC, please don't post it here.

If you're just asking for WotC races, you've pretty much got all the OGL materials covered with the PHB, MM, and XPH. I suppose maybe there's the racial variants in Unearthed Arcana, but other than that I don't think there are any OGC WotC races. One other thing to remember is that covering templates is a must.

That said, I wanted to go back over something from the feedback thread.

Quote::

lordmonkeysama wrote: I would love to see a way to incorporate class features into a race. While high lvl casting/manifesting should be for big bad monsters or creatures with a really high LA, it would be fun to create a race of say truly magical elves who could cast as a 3rd level Sorc or Druid. Unfortunately, this is not a direction that I would be likely to go. Of course, I could spell out rules for doing such - but I would consider it a bad idea. The reason for it is the same as for making all class abilities that grant feats go away in CC. It is bad game design to have a system like CC that allows access to the same result via two different paths. What that does is simply open up the game for abuse and powergaming.

I'm not sure what you mean by "two different paths." I like the suggestion that racial abilities are purchased just like class abilities: by XP and nothing else. The only major problem I can see here is that you'd need to tweak the amount of base XP given to a character when they're purchasing their character abilities for 1st level, since that's also when racial abilities are (normally) acquired for a character.

Quote::

My opinion follows, and my opinion has flaws within it, I understand: Realistically, where I thought WotC went wrong in the first place was making monster creation different than PC creation. I don't mind having a list of abilities that only monsters or very special characters can pull from (like multiattack with natural weapons and what-not) but I would have really felt better if there was no such thing as LA and monsters were built from level 1 just like characters.

I also appreciate the mechanics for NPCs and PCs being the same. That said, I can understand why they didn't do this, as charting the difference between how much of a challenge an NPC is requires a separate rating than the level system used for PCs. Hence why CR is so very different from ECL (at least...depending on who you listen to).

Quote::

Of course, with CC you can do that. If you want a monster to have 5d8 HD then you buy them 5d8 hit die from the beginning. If you want them to cast spells like a 3rd level sorcerer then you buy them access to spells as you would a PC. If you want them to have super ability scores you just buy them that way (or equipe them a la Complete Gear to have those ability scores)

Strictly speaking, you can do this, but again there's no easy way to measure how this impacts the measurement of the creature as a challenging combat encounter. In other words, if you build NPCs via CC, measuring their CR is more difficult than calculating a PC's character level (this is particularly true since you'd build the NPC via a set amount of XP; ideally, this'd be the same amount of XP that the PCs would gain for defeating it, but the XP they gain is based on a sliding scale relative to their level...and based around comparing that to the creature's CR).

That said, it's entirely possible that I'm making it more difficult than it has to be. After all, from a mechanical standpoint, CC does make it easy to just plug in whatever abilities you want into any character. From there, you can probably just eyeball the CR adjustment.

Unto itself, CC is at its strongest, I think, when used for PCs rather than NPCs.

Quote::

Nobody needs to know whether it came through experience/gear or they were born that way.

This is one of the major reasons that I think it's a good idea to also have Complete Races (looks like you're going with that name, huh?) also built around XP expenditures. Namely, from an in-character perspective, the line between racial abilities and class abilities is very blurry. If you've gained new spells as a sorcerer, we know that's a class ability, but you're saying it's a blood connection to some monstrous ancestor in your past, which sounds racial. Likewise if you purchase darkvision later in your adventuring career. Purchasing class abilities and racial abilities blend together very well.

My worry is mostly about having enough freedom when designing a character of an unusual race. Everything, from creature type to size, should (I think) be on the table. That said, those two would be a bit harder, since they each come with a variety of other adjustments and abilities that would have to be factored in (in other words, traits would be kept, though features such as Hit Dice, saves, BAB and skill points would not be, since those are purchased separately anyway). For example, someone who purchased the aberration type for their character would automatically get 60 ft. darkvision as a trait of that, which would make that creature type more expensive than the humanoid type. Of course, one could remove inherent traits associated with creature types altogether, purchasing those separately also, but then there'd be little point in having creature types to begin with (and that'd be a little harder to do with sizes).

Quote::

So if I were to create a Complete Origins work, it would probably have to hit both topics: How to create a playable race (LA +0), and Table for purchasing Monster abilites as class abilities. That way, a DM could start by building an LA+0 race and make them into an LA +X race if they wanted just by spending the proper amount of experience to bring them up to the right LA.

In other words, using an XP point-buy system would make make level adjustments unnecessary.

The only race that was released as OGC not found in the books listed above was the Scorpion Folk from MMII. Why they alone from the book were opened, I cannot imagine, but here is their entry from D20SRD:

www.d20srd.org/srd/mon...onfolk.htm

Other than that, what do you want? Just us to mention races that should be included in some form without stats or what?

there's actually a whole ton of races out there, each Races of book has a brand new major race, along with several minor ones, Eberron added in 3 more, i think Incarnum added another one or two, etc. there must be at least two dozen races outside the books listed.

Now, it all depends on what exactly NLF is looking for. If he actually needs all the races, that might be a problem. however, i don't see why just a list of their abilities wouldn't suffice. Of course, that might not be allowed as their closed conent, but im not sure.

that's basically it... he could use those sources for research purposes, as far as attempting to get the numbers right... but he can't actually put them in a DSP (mentalis design, whatever) book...

[edit] that being said, i'm pretty sure the phrenic scourge came from a specific source that was aiming to provide OGL-compatible monsters that were similar in role to various IP monsters from WotC. perhaps incorporating material from that work would be useful?

specifically, it looks like they came from here, so that may be a good starting point?[/edit]

In answer to all the "what are you looking for" questions ... perhaps the best answer is that I was trying to give a veiled hint that anyone who thought a particular Non-OGL race should be included (because it is a great example or contains a few unusual racial aspects not found in the OGL races) in the work should send those to me via PM rather than post them here. I don't want non-OGL stuff posted on the forum because it is technically illegal. And while itis still technically illegal to PM them to me as well, it is more realistic frommy perspective because I can control who doesn't see the info, mainly everyone except me.

Alzrius wrote:

One other thing to remember is that covering templates is a must.

Absolutely agreed. Would someone care to run up a list of templates? Do we just use OGL? Do we have any other choice?

Alzrius wrote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "two different paths."

What I mean is that when a game like CC offers an avenue to a part of the character through two different maens that players can exploit it. Let me give an example.

DSP put out a great product about turning the soulknife into a series of feats. It is a phenominal product, but it actually weakens the balance of the game to allow a single character access to that resource in addition to access to the soulknife class in conjunction with CC. Essentially, it allows them to choose multiple paths of least resistance to gain a power that the game designers did not intend for them to have so quickly. A player can look at that and say to themself, "I can buy the feat version for Y XP, but I can buy the class ability for Z XP." So, I can figure out which is the most economical for the character and go that route. That "dual-path" weakens the balance inherently placed in the escalating cost of feats and the constant cost of class abilities. This is precisely why CC has a rule that says any class ability which mimicks a feat should be discarded from the game while the feat is kept in play.

Alzrius wrote:

I like the suggestion that racial abilities are purchased just like class abilities: by XP and nothing else. The only major problem I can see here is that you'd need to tweak the amount of base XP given to a character when they're purchasing their character abilities for 1st level, since that's also when racial abilities are (normally) acquired for a character.

Exactly, and I'm not sold on that yet. Essentially, what it would mean is taking all racial abilities and turning them into class abilities. That could be done ... but the impact may not be good. On the other hand, the problem with keeping them seperate is where to draw the line between abilities that are small enough to be racial versus too large to not be XP. For example, take an LA +2 race. At what point are some of its abilities racial and others XP driven? Perhaps what is needed is to take every LA +X race and make sure that there is a "racial" minimum that is bought with racial points but which can be improved with an ability purchased with XP. That would allow an LA +3 race to be played as an LA +0 race and gradually improved up to its standard LA +3 status, for example.

Quote::

I also appreciate the mechanics for NPCs and PCs being the same. That said, I can understand why they didn't do this, as charting the difference between how much of a challenge an NPC is requires a separate rating than the level system used for PCs. Hence why CR is so very different from ECL (at least...depending on who you listen to).

And depending on the game. The majority of my gaming is done with the PCs going against classed NPCs. So for me, I build NPCs as PCs all the time and have them go up against the party using their level as CR. The problem is that as you state, it doesn't always translate well into monsters. But I think it can be made to work. At least that is where I am hedging my bets for the moment.

Alzrius wrote:

measuring their CR is more difficult than calculating a PC's character level (this is particularly true since you'd build the NPC via a set amount of XP; ideally, this'd be the same amount of XP that the PCs would gain for defeating it, but the XP they gain is based on a sliding scale relative to their level...and based around comparing that to the creature's CR).

That's a cool idea, and one that I could easily work into this potential work. If the DMis building an adversary with a set XP, then the reward is equal to the XP used tobuild it. And, I have little doubt that I can develop a fair sliding scale that is easy to use on the fly for handing out awards for encounters that are above/below party level. Hold me accountable to this one, I like it.

{EDIT: I just thought this one through. Let's take a level 2 adversary built with 1,000 XP. That would mean that four a standard 4 person perty that they would receive 250 XP each. Now, a 2nd level character is going to need to get from 1,000 XP to 3,000 XP to advance to level 3. At 250 XP per encounter, that's only 8 encounters, not the desired 13.3 as suggested by the current XP tables. So, it isn't quite so straightforward as hoped. But, it should may still be able to be handled. Just not as easily as hoped.}

{EDIT2: I just really thought this one through, and am losing faith in it more an more, unfortunately. Take a 20th level encounter, made with the 210,000 XP available to it. a party of 4 characters dealing with this encounter would receive 52,500 XP per character. That's enough to jump 2 levels ... hence why I am losing faith init even more. This leads me back to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mantra. Perhaps, while a great idea, it is best to not be included.}

Alzrius wrote:

That said, it's entirely possible that I'm making it more difficult than it has to be. After all, from a mechanical standpoint, CC does make it easy to just plug in whatever abilities you want into any character. From there, you can probably just eyeball the CR adjustment.

Or, you could be foreseeing a potential flaw that needs to be pointed out. The difference between seeing a flaw and making something more complicated than need be is often only seen in hindsight. I appreciate your thoughts.

Alzrius wrote:

Unto itself, CC is at its strongest, I think, when used for PCs rather than NPCs.

Agreed ... but it is really fun for NPCs, too. Nothing like throwing a party against a new psionic race that has never been seen before by anyone because the DM made it up two nights ago. Talk about making a game where itreally is useless for the players to "memorize" the MM. Now that's a cool thought!

Alzrius wrote:

This is one of the major reasons that I think it's a good idea to also have Complete Races (looks like you're going with that name, huh?) also built around XP expenditures.

It's the one Andreas has used several times now. And since I am only the author and notthe publisher, I tend to go with Andreas and Jeremy and just write the content. Personally, I like Complete Origins. But in the end I can like Complete Races, too. It's a name. And I do like the abreviation CR.

Alzrius wrote:

Everything, from creature type to size, should (I think) be on the table. That said, those two would be a bit harder, since they each come with a variety of other adjustments and abilities that would have to be factored in (in other words, traits would be kept, though features such as Hit Dice, saves, BAB and skill points would not be, since those are purchased separately anyway).

I was wondering if size is a wash. Remember that with this system size wouldn't grant improvements to HD or abilities or anything like that. It would just grant bonus to reach, a bonus to hit (I think), a penalty to AC, a penalty to hide, and perhaps a few other things. But wouldn't those things largely cancel out?

As for type/subtype ... that's a can of worms I hadn't thought about. Could be that type comes automatically with a few purchases. Have to think about that one.

Alzrius wrote:

In other words, using an XP point-buy system would make make level adjustments unnecessary.

I know. Doesn't that right there give you goose-bumps?

The_Mess wrote:

Why they alone from the book were opened, I cannot imagine, but here is their entry from D20SRD

Cool. I didn't realize that they were in there! Thanks for the info.

LMS wrote:

If he actually needs all the races, that might be a problem. however, i don't see why just a list of their abilities wouldn't suffice. Of course, that might not be allowed as their closed conent, but im not sure.

Well, it isn't really a matter of need. More like a matter of mathematical variance. If all I use is OGL races, then the product will be balanced within OGL. But the more races I can include in the research, the more likely a sense of balance is going to be found outside of OGL. I realize that no true balance is ever going to be found. Heck, the PHB races aren't balanced with each other! But a greater pool of data usually helps ensure that there are fewer anomalies.

[Edit: Jaid beat me to this part of the answer ... ]

My suggested races - Changelings, Shifters, Kalashtar, Warforged. These are all base races for Eberron and would thus very much represent a baseline.

Honestly though guys, a thought is coming to me. One could easily enter this information and remix D&D3.5 into an entirely new game of itself... if one had the time and inclination to make a new complete gaming system. One could even simplify it by releasing the main rules and character/race stuff, but excluding spells. Yes...

Angellis_ater wrote:

My suggested races - Changelings, Shifters, Kalashtar, Warforged. These are all base races for Eberron and would thus very much represent a baseline.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Angellis_ater wrote:

but excluding spells. Yes...

Why? I mean, I may not like vancian magic at all. But it is the MO of many games out there. To exclude magic completely is like cutting off all the toes on your dominant foot and expecting to be able to walk right.

Angellis_ater wrote:

Honestly though guys, a thought is coming to me. One could easily enter this information and remix D&D3.5 into an entirely new game of itself... if one had the time and inclination to make a new complete gaming system. One could even simplify it by releasing the main rules and character/race stuff,

Shhhh. We're trying to swallow the elephant one bite at a time without looking at the elephant in the room. Don't make us realize the elephant!

Oops just realized my last post dosent say what i wanted it to. What i was trying to say was if NLF has to have the whole stat block of a monster or race that might be a problem whereas just listing their abilities would not be. I have a 3 day weekend off from work so i will try to compile said list along with one for templates.

Yes. eat the elephant one part at a time. Understood.

Why exclude spells? Easily, look at the spells chapter + magic items. HUGE monsters, pagewise. You release a Core book, which is very much usable for a standard fantasy game. Then you add modules for Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Martial stuff.

EDIT: Further explanation - this shortens the time from written to published, lessens the burdens on the layouter (Jeremy) and increases modularity, which the system is all about, right?

just putting this out there. I am a fan of a role-playing game called Anima: Beyond Fantasy. with that said, the explanation begins. why have types or subtypes at all? if we do have them, why don't we just reduce the number of them significantly. in Anima, there is only four types of creatures (and by extension humanoids):
Natural (these are the humans, mostly humans, animals, plants, etc.) Being Between Worlds (these are the elementals, outsiders, dragons, etc.)
Souls/Spirits (these are the immaterial being of the other side, these are not undead)
Living Dead (nuf said, they can be solid or less than solid).

now with that said, that game also has something called Gnosis which, if you had enough of it, allowed you to begin gaining monster abilities which could potentially change your body physically to allow for the ability to function. (also if you had enough Gnosis you eventually became a god...)one important note, the average person has a Gnosis of 0, while the average player started out with a Gnosis of 10. they couldn't start gaining abilities from the monster charts until they got something like 20 or 25. the maximum Gnosis score possible is 50.

just thought that these ideas would help.

Angellis_ater wrote:

Yes. eat the elephant one part at a time. Understood.

Angellis_ater wrote:

Why exclude spells? Easily, look at the spells chapter + magic items. HUGE monsters, pagewise. You release a Core book, which is very much usable for a standard fantasy game. Then you add modules for Arcane, Divine, Psionic, Martial stuff.

Okay, this makes sense, and I fully buy into that completely. I guess I just needed the deeper explanation.

Angellis_ater wrote:

EDIT: Further explanation - this shortens the time from written to published, lessens the burdens on the layouter (Jeremy) and increases modularity, which the system is all about, right?

Absolutely.

Okay, let's play a little game. It's called "Rank the races." Rank these races in order of most powerful to least powerful:

Dromite
Duergar (XPH, not MM)
Dwarf
Elan
Elf
Goblin
Gnoll
Gnome
Half-Elf
Half-Giant
Half-Orc
Halfling
Human
Kobold
Lizardfollk
Maenad
Ogre
Orc
Scorpionfolk
Xeph

And, if youare familiar with them, feel free to add these to the list:

Chaimairan
Changelings
Kalashtar
Ophiduan
Shifters
Warforged

NOTES:

• When the option of subraces exists (like with elves, gnomes, dwarves, etc) use just the PHB/XPH variety rather than the MM subrace.


• Remember to not take into account things like: Monstrous HD, humanoid levels and feats/skill points gained from them, as well as unbalanced ability score bonuses. These are ignored because hopefully in Complete Races these kind of things will be bought with XP, not racial points.


• I realize that I included the unique races from Third Dawn, but did not ask for the Third Dawn improved races (human, dwarf, etc) I also realize that the Third Dawn races were designed to be balanced more with the PHB dwarf than any of the other PHB races, however, if you are ignoring the unbalanced ability improvements, this should bea moot point.


• Let me remind people that the easiest way to make your post is probably to quote this post and then simply erase the quote tags. Please keep your response in a vertical list, though.


• Ties are certainly acceptable, if so, note that in your post. Don't agonize over this, I'm looking for broad strokes, not split hairs.


• Anyone noting an absent race (and there are a few OGL playable races that I left off)and wants it included, feel free to do so.


• Finally, thank you for anyone giving input into this. I appreciateit, and more input will likely result in a better work.

tevolria wrote:

now with that said, that game also has something called Gnosis

First, thanks for the input, tevloria. Second, I find this Gnosis idea extraordinarily interesting. Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Historically, the Gnostics are a group of people that believe that the only way to truly discover God (and salvation, if you will) is to gain special knowledge that "normal" humans don't have access to. They are called Gnostics because the Greek word for Knowledge is, well, gnosis.

And for the record, when most people speak of Gnostics they speak of the Christian variety. However, Gnostics are also found among Jews, Muslems, and many other religions. They don't exist among philosophies for rather obvious reasons - the first of which being that a philophy is inherently a quest for deeper understanding (gnosis).

Anyway, sorry for those of you who don't find words nearly as interesting as I do. Please return to the previous discussion.....

hey NLF, your asking us to list the above races based on power? what do you mean exactly? are you asking for their LA/CRs? or something else?

I guess your comment about ties and agongizing over them confused me. if what your asking for is strictly a rule based ranking, then of course their will be ties, but it almost seems like your asking for personal opinions.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

I guess your comment about ties and agongizing over them confused me. if what your asking for is strictly a rule based ranking, then of course their will be ties, but it almost seems like your asking for personal opinions.

No, if I want a strict rules ranking (by LA or ECL or CR or whatever) I can look that up easily enough. What I want is your opinion. Given those races (minus things like monstrous humanoid levels, unbalanced ability scores, etc) what is the most powerful combination of racial abilities? What is the weakest combination of racial abilities?

As for ties ... what I mean is people debating between minute power differences. Is the Maenad really more powerful than the Xeph - or is it pretty close? If its close enough to debate ... then it could well be a tie.

Warforged
Duergar (XPH, not MM)
Dwarf
Human
Changelings
Ophiduan
Kalashtar
Gnome
Halfling
Half-Giant
Shifters
Elan (but only when playing something with pp)
Dromite
Elf
Lizardfolk (for their AC)

TIED:
Goblin
Gnoll
Half-Elf
Half-Orc
Kobold
Maenad
Ogre
Orc
Xeph
Chaimairan

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

tevolria wrote: now with that said, that game also has something called Gnosis First, thanks for the input, tevloria. Second, I find this Gnosis idea extraordinarily interesting. Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Historically, the Gnostics are a group of people that believe that the only way to truly discover God (and salvation, if you will) is to gain special knowledge that "normal" humans don't have access to. They are called Gnostics because the Greek word for Knowledge is, well, gnosis. And for the record, when most people speak of Gnostics they speak of the Christian variety. However, Gnostics are also found among Jews, Muslems, and many other religions. They don't exist among philosophies for rather obvious reasons - the first of which being that a philophy is inherently a quest for deeper understanding (gnosis). Anyway, sorry for those of you who don't find words nearly as interesting as I do. Please return to the previous discussion.....

Anima is filled with quite a bit of Christian lore (as well as a few other religions). it does portray them in an alternate manner to take into acount a world where the supernatural actually exists. Gnosis is described as ones ability to not be effected by the flow of the soul flux (soul flow? I'll look it up later). gnosis of 40 or 45 was what was needed to become a god. of course gods are by no means the most powerful being in Gaia (the world of Anima); members of a very secret organization send agents (Jurgand agents) to deal with things that have a gotten out of hand (world-wide out of hand). Jurgand agents are described as powerful enough to slaughter entire armies in moments and kill gods with a wave of a hand. luckily they aren't supposedc to interfere with the affairs of Gaia.

also, some religious people who were good guys in our history are... less so in Anima.

on another note I like the idea of monster points for getting monster-like abilities. though I think that psi/spell-like abilities shouldn't be on the list.

If you don't want to include size bonuses for consideration, then the kobold and ogre drop down to the bottom section. Otherwise, I think the higher speed and reach combined with natural AC are worthwhile.

Warforged
Duergar
Dwarf
Human
Half-Giant
Kalashtar
Changelings
Shifters
Elan
Kobold
Ogre
Halfling
Elf
Dromite
Lizardfolk
Gnome

Tied:
Goblin
Gnoll
Xeph
Maenad
Half-Orc
Half-Elf
Orc

Any update on this? I hope this book is still in the works!