this is true...

You mean basically the Hidden Talent feat from the XPH?

Makes sense... and would be a cleaner way to do the Maenad rewrite from Kobold Quarterly.

Snowpaws wrote:

Instead of 1/day powers for any of our races, why not give them a power flat out and say they have a manifesting level is equal to one half their class level (rounded down) or equal to their highest manifesting class, which ever is higher. The whole concept of psi-like abilities is silly when you have free power points.

so... in other words, upgrade their free wild talent to a free hidden talent?

Compared to the PF gnome, the only things really going for the blue are slightly higher skill bonuses and Stealth always being a class skill. The gnome gets bonuses against giants, reptilians, goblins, and illusions, and special vision. Both races get bonuses to a "magic" system, and the gnome gets 4 1/day spells, while the blue get 1 1/day power, but with a more powerful effect.

Darkvision is roughly equal to low-light; while the higher movement could arguably be better than a bonus against a race, the sum of several plus a +2 against a school of magic could be comparable. Also, these are very physical things about goblins; if goblins are always running away/living in dark places, how well would blues really do if they were slower and had more difficulty seeing?

So, if you couldn't guess, I feel that Darkvision and 30 ft. speed need to be included.

Zeuy wrote:

So, if you couldn't guess, I feel that Darkvision and 30 ft. speed need to be included.

Wow - now that's a nicely worded argument for adding it!

Changing psi-like abilities to extra powers known has many impacts that have to be considered before this is done. Primarily, this means that the power requires power points to use, as opposed to a set number of uses per day. "So what", you ask?

For starters, this means that a creature with a psionic class, as opposed to a base class, receives many more uses in a given day of said power. This encourages a player to choose a psionic class over any base class in order to fully enjoy their racial abilities. This is in direct contrevention of Pathfinder design philosophy. In Pathfinder, any racial ability that encouraged a particular class was removed, up to and including removing specific favored classes. Conclusion: Racial abilities should be equally enjoyable for all members of that race, regardless of what class you choose.

Second, this idea invaldates the concept of psi-like abilities, as well as spell-like abilities. The very definition of a psi-like ability is a psionic ability that come naturally to a creature or race that requires neither previous training or knowledge (unlike psionic powers, which always do). A psionic power must be learned and practiced to be available for use, usually by means of a psionic class. Psi-like abilities, like spell-like abilities, come naturally, without training on the character's part. Conclusion: Any power that comes naturally to a given creature and/or race should be classified as a psi-like ability.

While yes, many players of psionic races are going to choose psionic classes, this will not be absolute. I myself have played an elan bard... and I have seen someone else play a xeph favored soul (of Elhonna). If this idea is run with, then Naturally Psionic merely giving the Wild Talent or Hidden Talent feats for free will not nearly be enough. Naturally Psionic will have to be changed again to give power points at every level to said being. Mabye even multiple points per level. Conclusion: The rules need to be written so as to allow other classes to be chosen without perceived penalty.

I hope I don't come off as upset or agumentative. I merely want these points considered carefully and their repercussions well understood. I'm personally very optimistic about DSP's project and am very excited about my oppurtunity to contribute! I look foward to beta edition with the bouncing butt of an 8-year old kid on their first road trip to disney land!

And yes, I'm all for blues keeping darkvision and a 30' speed.

Consider my vote on that one cast!

Chris - nice counter argument.

You guys are definitely giving us a lot to think about - and putting them in the perspective of Pathfinder design philosophy is also a great thing for everyone involved - after all, the whole point is to fit in with Pathfinder!

ChrisGunter wrote:

For starters, this means that a creature with a psionic class, as opposed to a base class, receives many more uses in a given day of said power. This encourages a player to choose a psionic class over any base class in order to fully enjoy their racial abilities. This is in direct contrevention of Pathfinder design philosophy. In Pathfinder, any racial ability that encouraged a particular class was removed, up to and including removing specific favored classes. Conclusion: Racial abilities should be equally enjoyable for all members of that race, regardless of what class you choose.

Uh, not really. Have you looked at the elf in Pathfinder? A bonus to INT, a bonus to overcoming spell resistance, a bonus to identifying magic items... they're incredibly good wizards, and they certainly have racial abilities that encourage that class.

What about gnomes and illusion save DC kickers? That right there encourages bards, wizards, sorcerers, and beguilers.

The goblin's racial attributes are perfect for a rogue that isn't concerned with the "social" option. Way better than the halfling.

I wouldn't say that there's any inherent design philosophy that discourages racial abilities that encourage niches the race is expected to have by dint of flavor. In fact, they even strengthened some races' penchant to be certain classes, most notably elves.

ChrisGunter wrote:

Changing psi-like abilities to extra powers known has many impacts that have to be considered before this is done. Primarily, this means that the power requires power points to use, as opposed to a set number of uses per day. "So what", you ask? For starters, this means that a creature with a psionic class, as opposed to a base class, receives many more uses in a given day of said power. This encourages a player to choose a psionic class over any base class in order to fully enjoy their racial abilities. This is in direct contrevention of Pathfinder design philosophy. In Pathfinder, any racial ability that encouraged a particular class was removed, up to and including removing specific favored classes. Conclusion: Racial abilities should be equally enjoyable for all members of that race, regardless of what class you choose.

By default the player is asked to choose a Psionic class in order to enjoy the racial. As the alpha is written right now, the races get 1 pp per level that would go to waste otherwise and the ability to take a second favorite class, which doesn’t sound like much but still counts against them from a balance perspective.

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Second, this idea invaldates the concept of psi-like abilities, as well as spell-like abilities. The very definition of a psi-like ability is a psionic ability that come naturally to a creature or race that requires neither previous training or knowledge (unlike psionic powers, which always do). A psionic power must be learned and practiced to be available for use, usually by means of a psionic class. Psi-like abilities, like spell-like abilities, come naturally, without training on the character's part. Conclusion: Any power that comes naturally to a given creature and/or race should be classified as a psi-like ability.

I'd like to think that’s a matter of opinion. Psionics by nature is something that just comes to you. It could take a much or as little practice based on your own mental aptitude. At the end of the day, you’re not reading something or moving your hands, you’re using your own raw will and force of presence. On the otherhand, you are more than right, but if their naturally psionic, it could still make sence that they can just do it with the best of them, even if its only one power.

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While yes, many players of psionic races are going to choose psionic classes, this will not be absolute. I myself have played an elan bard... and I have seen someone else play a xeph favored soul (of Elhonna). If this idea is run with, then Naturally Psionic merely giving the Wild Talent or Hidden Talent feats for free will not nearly be enough. Naturally Psionic will have to be changed again to give power points at every level to said being. Mabye even multiple points per level. Conclusion: The rules need to be written so as to allow other classes to be chosen without perceived penalty.

Agreed and no argument.

On a side note:

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Outburst (Ex): Once per day, for up to 4 rounds, a maenad can subjugate his mentality to gain a boost of raw physical power. When he does so, she takes a –2 penalty to Intelligence and Wisdom but gains a +2 bonus to Strength.

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

Be that as it may - Blues are more civilized, enlightened versions of goblins by canon, so that's likely the route we'll go.

ChrisGunter wrote:

Yes, I like the outcast theme. Blue characters really have to worry when facing other goblinoids in combat. Great storytelling opportunities!

Eradarus wrote:

A friend of mine played a Blue that had mental illness. He thought he was one of those little blue things from the frostburn setting... Uldra I think. It was hilarious.

Considering Paizo's treatment of goblin's "fluff," perhaps the blues shouldn't be completely serious either. Perhaps they are susceptible to delusions of grandeur and conquest ala Invader Zim?

Gawd. Invader Zim Blues... so... very... terrifying...

"Worse? or Better?"

I can see it already - "There's five of us, and five billion of them. Excellent odds. ATTACK!"

AmbrosiaSlaad wrote:

Considering Paizo's treatment of goblin's "fluff," perhaps the blues shouldn't be completely serious either. Perhaps they are susceptible to delusions of grandeur and conquest ...

You know, there's a lot to be said for that. I've found that most every party needs both a "comic relief" character and a "straight man" for him to play off (usually the party leader or the paladin). With any hobby as intellectual as gaming, the tendency for players to crack wise at the table is overpowering ... by actively channeling that tendency (for some players), you can achieve a better party dynamic than you get if you force everyone to play serious or brooding characters.

In the next game that I have scheduled, the youngest player asked specifically to play the "comic relief" role in the form of a kobold necromancer with no known social graces. This player would, I think, jump at the chance to play a blue, given the role that goblins play in the PFRPG setting. The race lends itself well to the party role.

What type of action is a meanad's outburst ability? It doesn't say in either the srd or anywhere else. Is it just decided at the start of their round?
Also what should Elans and Ophiduans 2nd ability increase be? Pathfinder usually uses +2/+2/-2 but both of them have +2/-2. I would think elans would get a +2 to constitution to represent their bodies being more durable, but I'm not sure about Ophiduans.

I don't think those races should have a 2nd ability increase if they are meant to have no LA adjustment. Having a type other than humanoid can be quite beneficial.

I know it's a bit late, but regarding the extra favored class and extra pp. I think those should be consolidated into a single ability. One that basically says that if you take a level in said class you gain an extra 1pp at every level in addition to any other favored class ability. That would make them favor that class wihout shoehorning them into it.

We will most likely remove the 2nd favored class option we had going earlier and just make it so if you take a Psionic Class as your favored class, a "naturally psionic" race gets the choice of getting +1pp per level instead of an additional skill or hit point.

I'll be putting out an Alpha 2 document for this soon, since a lot of the suggestions coming up late in the thread have already been adopted or discussed

Zeuy Wrote:

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I don't think those races should have a 2nd ability increase if they are meant to have no LA adjustment. Having a type other than humanoid can be quite beneficial.

Is having a different type other then humanoid really that much of a problem? Everyone in my group usually plays humanoids so I don't have much experience with nonhumanoid races. What advantages does that bring other then immunity to some of the lower level enchantment spells?