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Minor Metamorphosis Errata
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Jeremy.Smith
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Post Post subject: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 05:32 PM
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So, some points were raised about the Metamorphosis power chain.

Here's the errata I'm working on for it - I figured I'd bring it up here in case there are other items that need to be addressed:

Metamorphosis, Minor

Add the following to the power's description after the first paragraph:
When the change occurs, your equipment either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item in question) or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your normal form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its normal form.

Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read:
If you choose to imitate an existing person, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to Disguise checks to convince people that you are that person.

Add the following line to the power's description after the 2nd paragraph:
You can choose to change your form drastically enough to no longer be recognized as yourself; you instead simply look like a generic member of whatever form you have chosen.


Size Increases: Add - as if under the effects of expansion.
Size Decreases: Add - as if under the effects of compression.


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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 06:38 PM
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I forget, and I don't have my books with me right now, but do the metamorphosis powers give a bonus on Disguise checks? Is this bonus in addition to that one?

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Post Post subject: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 06:40 PM
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They give a Bluff check. I'm changing that to Disguise since it makes more sense.


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Post Post subject: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 06:19 PM
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I assumed that to be an error.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 04:59 PM
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For the record, I was the one who raised some issues about Metamorphosis.

The clarifications look reasonable, although if I were designing the powers from scratch I probably would have just referenced the Polymorph subschool (or a variation thereof), although Polymorph has it own quirks and idiosyncrasies.

A few comments:
  • I realise that Metamorphosis doesn't need to work the same as Polymorph, but note that in PFRPG, melding items into your body does not make them non-functional (in general).
  • The following line still isn't very clear to me: "You can take the form of any creature of the same size as yourself, but this is a purely cosmetic change, your abilities, powers or stats do not change beyond the options selected below." First, either it should say "but as this is a purely cosmetic change", or the comma after "change" should be a semi-colon (IMO). Second, how does "purely cosmetic" work when you change to a radically different shape, e.g. one that adds or removes limbs? Are they really there, just invisible or disguised as something else?
  • How does it stack with other form-changing powers and spells?

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 06:33 PM
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it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.

so, in order to effectively disguise yourself as, say, a cheetah... you might look like one, but unless you appropriately add movement speed, nobody is going to be fooled into thinking you're a cheetah when you run.

as far as stacking, generally speaking it shouldn't. there are rules on stacking similar effects, and i'd say that form-changing effects are obviously pretty similar.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 03:05 AM
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Jaid wrote:
it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.
Saying "purely cosmetic" means "cosmetic" doesn't clarify things at all.

For instance, suppose I turn into a grey ooze. Does that mean that I still have arms and legs? I suppose so -- taking the most literal interpretation means that I would look like a human in a slightly-better-than-average grey ooze costume.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 06:08 AM
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hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.
Saying "purely cosmetic" means "cosmetic" doesn't clarify things at all.

For instance, suppose I turn into a grey ooze. Does that mean that I still have arms and legs? I suppose so -- taking the most literal interpretation means that I would look like a human in a slightly-better-than-average grey ooze costume.

or that you don't look like you have arms and legs, but could extend them... at the expense of making it obvious you're not an ooze.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:42 AM
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Jaid wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.
Saying "purely cosmetic" means "cosmetic" doesn't clarify things at all.

For instance, suppose I turn into a grey ooze. Does that mean that I still have arms and legs? I suppose so -- taking the most literal interpretation means that I would look like a human in a slightly-better-than-average grey ooze costume.

or that you don't look like you have arms and legs, but could extend them... at the expense of making it obvious you're not an ooze.
But then that wouldn't be "purely cosmetic", would it? Since, for example, legless creatures can't be tripped.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 05:46 PM
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hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.
Saying "purely cosmetic" means "cosmetic" doesn't clarify things at all.

For instance, suppose I turn into a grey ooze. Does that mean that I still have arms and legs? I suppose so -- taking the most literal interpretation means that I would look like a human in a slightly-better-than-average grey ooze costume.

or that you don't look like you have arms and legs, but could extend them... at the expense of making it obvious you're not an ooze.
But then that wouldn't be "purely cosmetic", would it? Since, for example, legless creatures can't be tripped.

perhaps, but a creature that merely *looks* legless could presumably be tripped. people might not think to try, unless you give them reason to believe you actually do have legs. presumably, this is where the disguise skill comes into play.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:19 PM
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Jaid wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
it's all cosmetic unless you spend menu choices to gain the appropriate ability.
Saying "purely cosmetic" means "cosmetic" doesn't clarify things at all.

For instance, suppose I turn into a grey ooze. Does that mean that I still have arms and legs? I suppose so -- taking the most literal interpretation means that I would look like a human in a slightly-better-than-average grey ooze costume.

or that you don't look like you have arms and legs, but could extend them... at the expense of making it obvious you're not an ooze.
But then that wouldn't be "purely cosmetic", would it? Since, for example, legless creatures can't be tripped.

perhaps, but a creature that merely *looks* legless could presumably be tripped. people might not think to try, unless you give them reason to believe you actually do have legs. presumably, this is where the disguise skill comes into play.
Then I don't understand what you mean by "extend them", if you're just talking about someone with disguised legs. How can you extend something that's not unextended, so to speak?

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:38 PM
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(the nested quotes were getting a little excessive, since it's just us two anyways atm).

you don't need to extend them to walk, but you might need to extend them if, for example, you're a monk making an unarmed attack. as a houserule, you would probably also need them for jumping, but there is technically nothing in the ooze entry that forbids them from jumping even without any legs, to my knowledge. presumably also if you were going to put on a pair of boots, or some such thing.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 03:59 AM
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Let me go through how I think Metamorphosis works vs. Polymorph (as written anyways), and someone can correct me:

[li]Evan the Evoker casts Alter Self to change into a merman. Even with no ranks in Disguise, his disguise is pretty good: more often than not, he's almost indistinguishable from a real merman to the untrained eye (+10 to Disguise from the polymorph spell, -2 for imitating a different race = +8 vs. a +0 Perception check). Note that Evan cannot disguise himself as a particular merman, just a "generic" merman. The spell grants him the ability to swim and breathe underwater, although he can't swim as fast as a real merman; he can barely move on land, however. Any magic items Evan is wearing on his feet or legs still work, although they're melded with his body.[/li]
[li]Kenny the Kineticist manifests Minor Metamorphosis to change into a merman. With no ranks in disguise, his disguise is fairly mediocre and is detectable to the untrained eye about half the time (+2 to Disguise from the power, -2 for imitating a different race = +0 vs. a +0 Perception check); on the bright side, he can disguise himself as a particular merman, if he wants. He picks the swim speed ability, so he can swim, although not as fast as a real merman; he can also walk on land at normal speed, since he doesn't really have a tail, just "cosmetically" disguised legs. Any magic items Kenny is wearing on his feet or legs cease to work.[/li]
[li]Later, Evan disguises himself as a constrictor snake by casting Beast Shape I. Again, the disguise is pretty good, but he loses the ability to cast spells or hold a weapon. He gains the ability to slither around, climb trees and swim well.[/li]
[li]Not to be outdone, Kenny manifests Minor Metamorphosis to disguise himself as a constrictor snake and picks the Climb speed ability. His disguise is fairly mediocre, and it's a dead giveaway whenever he moves on land since he has to walk instead of slither -- his snakelike body is just a cosmetically disguised human body. On the bright side, he can still talk and use weapons (although that's another dead giveaway that he's not a real snake).[/li]

Does that sound correct?

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Post Post subject: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 04:27 AM
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I'm not ignoring this - still thinking about it. Smile


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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 05:43 AM
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Interestingly enough, in Ultimate Magic they came up with a "pick any N abilities" series of polymorph spells (in the Words of Power chapter) that have the same sort of ambiguity (e.g. the boilerplate in the polymorph subschool assumes that you're going to be taking the shape of a specific creature, but the Words of Power spells don't mention anything about that).

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 03:26 PM
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as i read it: first example more or less works as described (presumably someone dedicated to shapechanging in psionics will invest ranks in the skill, but it would probably make sense to grant at least a small bonus to the disguise check at least for assuming a 'generic' form).

the second example, i wasn't aware that slithering was a particular type of movement, rules-wise. as written, a snake simply has a land speed... as does a human. no new ability is required in order to slither, as it isn't mechanically adding anything (although obviously if the manifester extends a leg to kick something, or extends an arm to grab a weapon, it'll be pretty obvious he isn't a normal snake at that point).

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 04:12 AM
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Jaid wrote:
the second example, i wasn't aware that slithering was a particular type of movement, rules-wise. as written, a snake simply has a land speed... as does a human. no new ability is required in order to slither, as it isn't mechanically adding anything (although obviously if the manifester extends a leg to kick something, or extends an arm to grab a weapon, it'll be pretty obvious he isn't a normal snake at that point).
Moving with no legs is a special ability, insofar as you are immune to tripping (for instance). A humanoid can crawl, but only at a speed of 5' per move action.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 07:18 AM
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hogarth wrote:
Jaid wrote:
the second example, i wasn't aware that slithering was a particular type of movement, rules-wise. as written, a snake simply has a land speed... as does a human. no new ability is required in order to slither, as it isn't mechanically adding anything (although obviously if the manifester extends a leg to kick something, or extends an arm to grab a weapon, it'll be pretty obvious he isn't a normal snake at that point).
Moving with no legs is a special ability, insofar as you are immune to tripping (for instance). A humanoid can crawl, but only at a speed of 5' per move action.

sure, but if it's purely cosmetic then it has legs... it just doesn't look like it does. it can move the way it would normally move (ie on the ground, at it's normal rate)... it just doesn't *look* like it's walking.

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Post Post subject: Re: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 07:18 PM
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Jeremy.Smith wrote:
I'm not ignoring this - still thinking about it. Smile
My search fu isn't very good. Was there ever any further word on how the Metamorphosis line is supposed to function?

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Post Post subject: Minor Metamorphosis Errata
Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 05:26 AM
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I think I'm of the opinion that it (and the others in the tree) should grant a +10 bonus to Disguise, similar to the Polymorph school of spells.

Thoughts?


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