Lordmonkeysama wrote:

NLF, how against CPsi are u? cuz i was thinking that mixing in some Lurk Augments would make my character totally badass.

Well, the whole book disappointed me. The editing was poor, I wasn't inspired by the content at all. What about the lurk do you really like? What can you do with a lurk that you can't do by combining effects from other classes? I'm curious, because I didn't like CPsi so much that I refused to buy it. So I'm genuinelyasking for you to explain so I can understand.

Angellis_ater wrote:

One thing - if I were GMing Third Dawn, I would substitute Fighters with Warblades across the spectrum. Fighter is an NPC class, atleast in my eyes. Warblades use maneuvers and of all the stuff in Tome of Battle, their stuff is the least "supernatural/magicky" of it all.

Unfortunately, I don't own Bo9S. It came out at a time when I was changing in my gaming styles and it was just too much change for me at the time. Now that I am understanding game design much more deeply, I think I would be more open to it, though. Is it possible to explain whythe warblade is so great mechanically in a way that doesn't violate copyright infringement?

Although ... to be fair ... if we're using the new character design rules then there really won't a "Fighter Class." There will be characters who buy d10s and Full BAB and some feats. But likely they'll buy a few class abilities as well.

i unfortunately don't own the Bo9S, and i notice it isn't on the list of WotC books we'll be using so i'm guessing NLF also doesn't have it. it would certainly be nice though =D

for the psychic reformation power, i would suggest perhaps something that doesn't require that we keep track of when we gained each and every power etc... it seems like a lot of work to track every single expenditure of XP and what order it happened in just for one power, imo. something like 1/xth the total XP value of what you are changing (perhaps 1/20th i think would be the closest equivalent to what is getting swapped... although on the other hand, the original psychich reformation only allows a partial swap. perhaps 1/10th would be more appropriate?)

so for example, if i look at my character sheet and want to change 2,000 XP worth of skills, i would then need to spend however much XP on that change, but could reassign the 2,000 XP into other skills (in your classless system, i'm not sure that requiring it be spent on skills is entirely necessary, but i guess it makes sense to stick with that unless and until we find the power to be completely underwhelming, which i don't anticipate happening).

Jaid wrote:

for the psychic reformation power, i would suggest perhaps something that doesn't require that we keep track of when we gained each and every power etc... it seems like a lot of work to track every single expenditure of XP and what order it happened in just for one power, imo. something like 1/xth the total XP value of what you are changing (perhaps 1/20th i think would be the closest equivalent to what is getting swapped... although on the other hand, the original psychich reformation only allows a partial swap. perhaps 1/10th would be more appropriate?)

Well, that's basically what I suggested. As far as skills go, you'd want to change the highest skill ranks first because they'e the ones that are going to cost the most. So, for example ... the Xth skill rank might cost A XP and the Xth+1 skill rank would cost B XP, where B > A. You'd want to take away the Xth+1 skill rank so you have more XP to distribute among the other skills. So skills you wouldn't need to keep track of when you got it or the order. You'd just always take away skill ranks starting from the most expensive and work your way down.

As for feats, you wouldn't need to keep track of when you got them either ... so long as you list your feats on your character sheet in the order you bought them. That would be all the record keeping that you would need to do.

As for powers, don't you have to keep track of what level you got them under the current system? In this system wouldn't need to keep track of each and every XP expense. Just make a note of which power you gained at each increase of manifester level. Increasing your level isn't going to happen more than 20 times in any game - so it shouldn't be that big of a deal. Since you list your powers on every character sheet, a simple notation of (1), (2), (3), etc after the power name would be all that was required. The (1), (2), etc represents the character's current manifester level when the power was gained. Then, you know how many manifester levels ago it was purchased.

The restriction for reassigning regained skill XP to be spent on skills is simply one of flavor, not balance. It honors the flavor of the 3.5 system for which it was designed. In that system, skill ranks were always reformed into skill ranks. But you're right, it wouldn't need to be. But it should be - to honor flavor.

Also, I like the new Avatar, Jaid!

I have to say, as i've been thinking about what exactly i can built here with this system, basically cherry-picking abilities, i am get quite excited. However, before i am too happy in teh pants, I am curious about one thing:

how exactly does this system handle PrC abilities? many of them are more potent than a normal class ability, especially the capstone ones. Also, PrCs have a much wider variety of powers than a base class so it can't be as simple to price out such effects.

the Lurk Augments are a level dependent abilities that make the attack of a Lurk more powerful via the expenditure of PPs. some examples are: one that increases the sneak attack damage, one that allows you to sneak attack constructs and undead, and one that causes the Lurk's next attack to deny a target its Dex bonus to AC.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

I have to say, as i've been thinking about what exactly i can built here with this system, basically cherry-picking abilities, i am get quite excited.

Well, keep in mind that many class abilities will gain prerequisites - especially those that begin later in a class' career or those that occur in PrC. If the class goes away, it's prerequisites often shift to the abilities contained within. So there might be some things that you have to take and might not want. But, maybe not....

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

how exactly does this system handle PrC abilities? many of them are more potent than a normal class ability, especially the capstone ones. Also, PrCs have a much wider variety of powers than a base class so it can't be as simple to price out such effects.

Abilities are divided up into different categories based on their mechanics. Those that are static, those that are level-dependant, those that are progressive, those that have uses. Cost is based on the minimum level in which they are gained.

For example, an ability with 1 daily use gained on third ability will cost less than an ability with 1 daily use gained on the sixth level. Additionally, the latter ability will pay more for its second use than the former will.

Keep in mind that this system can't automatically take into account the power of the abilities because power is often dependent upon build. At some point, some faith has to be placed in the class designers that the abilities in their classes are appropriate for the level in which they are gained. This is more true in some cases than others, of course. It is prone to being broken by absolute powergamers, but not necessarily more so than in a normal game.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

the Lurk Augments are a level dependent abilities that make the attack of a Lurk more powerful via the expenditure of PPs.

Is this done in a manner similar to the way a Halo Knight can use power points to increase its abilities? I know this is technically a break of copyright, so please feel free to say no ... but any chance you could send me a PM describing the mechanics of the ability from the Lurk you want?

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Well, sort of. Just because it's a psionic setting doesn't mean one must play a psionic character. You can certainly start with a generic fighter/barbarian/bard (sans magic)/rogue/whatever build and add psionic stuff as you gain XP and you have time to read. But, if you've got good psionic content laying aorund, I'll be glad to give you a reason to flex those muscles once again. Note, though ... I'm not a fan of CPsi. XPH was an awesome book. CPsi I loathed and refused to buy.

Yeah, I know, but I need to read it all again to see if I want to go in that direction, or whether something a little more mundane is what I'm after. I've got both XPH and CPsi, bought sight unseen I must add (nothing local where I can preview anything ), but as you can imagine it's been a while since I've even looked at them so you'll understand if I don't post an opinion.

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Have you looked at the psionic content here at DSP much? I have most of their work and it is all top o' the line. My favorites (as I've been telling everyone else) are probably the Worldthought Medic and the Halo Knight (And Tome of Channeling, but that's not psionic content.) Everyone else here can no doubt tell you their favorites, too. I should mention Untapped Potential, their flagship product. That was what got me hooked on DSP.

I've got a few DSP items, but as with the rest of my psionic stuff it's been sitting around unused, so I'll have to look it all over again. That means I should be ready to go about 2010 at the pace I've been reading.

oh, almost forgot... i am very much in favor of the idea of starting the game early with the 'normal' (traditional? whatever you want to call them ) rules for building characters... it gives us a chance to get a feel for what particularly we would like to change about the characters, for example, and gives us a better idea of what our characters are like. that way, when your rules come out, we know what is really central to the concept, and what we can cut away. but that's just my way of looking at it

(it also has the advantage that we get to play sooner. it does have the drawback that we don't really have the full story on the third dawn setting, but we could try to work around that in some way i suppose... hopefully it won't be long before we get the setting anyways )

Angellis_ater wrote:

One thing - if I were GMing Third Dawn, I would substitute Fighters with Warblades across the spectrum.

Like, really? Warblades are so powerful compared to existing melee classes that if you allowed them, there would be much less reason to play Psychic Warriors or Soulblades, two classes that DSP specializes in. Sort of defeats the point, I think.

Psion wrote:

Like, really? Warblades are so powerful compared to existing melee classes that if you allowed them, there would be much less reason to play Psychic Warriors or Soulblades, two classes that DSP specializes in. Sort of defeats the point, I think.

Psion, sorry if I took this much more snarky than you meant it. At first it came off really snarky so I took a few minutes, came back, reread it, and thought it might not have been meant in such a snarky manner. So forgive me if you didn't mean this snarky at all.

But ... please remember that this is a prospective game thread. It isn't a rules debate. Angellis_ater was simply offering up an opinion. And while I also appreciate the counter opinion to the relative power of the warblade ... it is just a game thread, not a rules thread. Please don't come here into this thread looking for an argument. There are other places to go for that. Again, if you didn't mean it that way, forgive me. But that's how it came across.

hey NLF, you said we're using Point Buy for stats, right? any chance i can convince you to use the Pathfinder method of all stats starting at 10, as opposed to 8. since ten is supposed to be the average in all stats, and it makes no sense to start below average, especially for a PC, i would strongly suggest this option.

there's nothing wrong with flawed heroes, so long as those flaws don't make it impossible to be a hero.

a royal knight who is proud, haughty, and snobby should not necessarily have a charisma of 10. someone who falls easily into many vices probably shouldn't have a wisdom of 10. a spellcaster who has always relied on his magic to solve all his physical problems should probably not have a strength of 10. these are all examples of characters who are very viable, could certainly fit the role of being a hero, but don't necessarily need to be average or better in every way.

besides, if he bumps us up to 10 in every stat, the most logical result of that is to take away 12 points from point buy. if you feel that *your* hero should be average or better in every way, the logical solution, imo, is to simply spend 12 of your points insuring that every attribute starts at 10 or higher. problem solved. it allows others to play a flawed hero, while allowing you to play your hero who has no glaring weaknesses. what's not to like?

actually, in Point Buy, one can lower stats as well, so if you desired to play a truly weak, yet magically potent Wizard, you could drop you Str down to 6 and have an Int of 18.

It just doesn't make sense to start below average, no matter how you try to make it fit. I won't refuse to play if we start at 8, but i won't ever agree it makes sense.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

hey NLF, you said we're using Point Buy for stats, right? any chance i can convince you to use the Pathfinder method of all stats starting at 10, as opposed to 8.

Nope. I was going to come up with this really great answer about that you could convince me to start at all 10's but only receive 20 pts to spend, but Jaid beat me too it!

Like Jaid, I like the fact that players have to decide to either live with sub-par stats in one or two ability scores or spend 12 of their 32 points bumping up all their scores to 10. Besides, 32 is a very generous amount of point-buy as it is. And, this system is going to make strong characters.

And ... this system doesn't give free ability score advancements every fourth level. In this system, you can buy as many advancements to ability scores as you want. [Of course, the XP you spend advancing your ability scores is XP you can't spend elsewhere.]

And ... nor do characters get free feats every three levels, fwiw. Everything is bought except racial stats! The general rule of thumb in this system is if you want it in your character and it's not a part of your initial race package, you bought it to put it there.

EDIT:

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

It just doesn't make sense to start below average, no matter how you try to make it fit. I won't refuse to play if we start at 8, but i won't ever agree it makes sense.

That's good! Hopefully the fact that you can buy your way to higher stats helps make it a little softer of a blow.

like i said, i won't agree it makes sense, but i can live with it. as is my character will be very Dex and Int based(hopefully NLF will approve some of the other abilities to really make this character rock), so i don't need to big of Str and Con.

ya know, it would be really helpful if we could at least see a preview list of how much XP some things cost although i guess since you totally replicate any of the core classes, most of the things i want for my character should be buyable.

Unfortunately, a preview wouldn't make a whole lot of sense without the rest of the rules. Because BAB size, HD size, Save progression, Ability increases, etc ... all tell how much XP a character has left to buy class abilities and/or psionic ability.

It'd be like saying that you can spend $300 per main item in a store knowing you have to also buy 7 other items first. Since you don't know how much the 7 items cost, itmakes it hard toknow about the main item.

Patience, young classless-jedi. [And no, I don't mean that you don't have any class! ]


As for anyone who does want to start putting a charcter together, feel free to throw out some ideas. As was stated earlier, we can certainly start in a standard game and reform when the rules come out.

My suggestions would be these - play in the Ophid Protectorate (there is a nice preview out and we might be convinced to preview more if there is a need for it), and start with standard characters that can be reworked later.

The Ophid Protectorate has the benefit of offering a multitude of different gaming ideas. You could be clearing out mines of barbarian kobolds in the Spearclaw Mountains, exploring the wild jungle and cleansing it from danger in preparation for the internal colonisation efforts. You could be scouts trekking the borders of other cultures like that of the Sommaran Jettur of the Eternal Desert or the nomadic Nimotei and their Great Rift. You could be the loyal entourage to an overseer or overlord, being sent on missions of great political importance... as well as undercover assassinations or disrupting the plots of other overseers. You can be colonizers yourselves, the leaders of a group of ophids wanting to build a new village, the foundation for becoming a true overseer or even overlord in the future - if that place can become prosperous enough.

Psion wrote:

Angellis_ater wrote: One thing - if I were GMing Third Dawn, I would substitute Fighters with Warblades across the spectrum. Like, really? Warblades are so powerful compared to existing melee classes that if you allowed them, there would be much less reason to play Psychic Warriors or Soulblades, two classes that DSP specializes in. Sort of defeats the point, I think.

Touchée on the Soulknife, but then I authored Mind Blade Feats and have a general feel/opinion that the Soulknife was more of a gimmick than a class, and as such it should be open to ALL psionic characters. In my eyes, the Psychic Warrior has different benefits versus that of the Warblade and they complement eachother nicely. But then, as NLF said - these are just MY opinions and my experiences with the game.

Hey Unleashed, good to see you here as well.

Ok my thoughts:

First: What is the penetrance of psionics in Third World? I know that there is no magic, but how prevalent and or accepted are these powers?

Secondly: If NLF runs it I'll play it. Killing and eating baby kobolds. Raw. With the bones. OK. So whatever setting is chosen is fine by me.

Third:I prefer a lower-level game 2nd to 6th is a sweet spot to me. I would prefer to be on the lower end of that range.

Fourth: NLF: How would you have characterized Mightier than the Sword? I liked that level of play, but again, if you're running, I'm on board.

Fifth: I am quite happy to start now, and tweak our characters later, though it may be significant.

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

But ... please remember that this is a prospective game thread. It isn't a rules debate. Angellis_ater was simply offering up an opinion. And while I also appreciate the counter opinion to the relative power of the warblade ... it is just a game thread, not a rules thread. Please don't come here into this thread looking for an argument.

I'm not looking for an argument; I simply think it would have a negative impact on the supposed purpose of such a game. I don't see how mentioning this is any less fair an opinion that Angellis_ater's is. Overall, it's up to the GM how to run the game.

Aside from which, it appear A_a took my comment in the conversational manner it was intended, so no harm, no foul, eh?

Psion wrote:

Aside from which, it appear A_a took my comment in the conversational manner it was intended, so no harm, no foul, eh?

Absolutely. That's the problem with internet .. it's so hard to read body language and intent. Which is why I put so much into my post about the possibility I could have been reading you wrong. I'm very happy to go along the no harm/no foul route!

Thanks for understanding. As the GM, I was just looking to protect the game without having to deal with a rules debate.