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#1141: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 07:03 AM
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Fenris wrote:

Now my skills were off a little. 8 points. I calculated 279 initially, the sheet came up with 271. Which I think is just rounding error between us.

Oh and you were right, the zero took care of the progression variable issue.

Yeah, rounding is an unfortunate consequence of spreadsheets. But I'm glad the zero worked out for ya!

#1142: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 07:46 AM
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Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Fenris wrote:

Yeah, rounding is an unfortunate consequence of spreadsheets. But I'm glad the zero worked out for ya!

Why is rounding an unfortunate consequnece of spreadsheets? The only reason there's rounding in your sheet at all is that you've either decided to use a rounding function (such as ROUNDUP in the skill calculations) or you've not edited the number tab of each cell to show 1 decimal place. If for example I simply edit the results cells for the following sections to show 1 decimal place (Psionics tab, Powerpoint Progression Purchase: XP Cost, and Total XP Cost for the tab; Char Sheet tab: Experience Spent, Unspent XP, and Spent XP - Initial), I can actually get the calculator to tell me I've spent 292.5 XP for buying 3 PP for a reduced manifester class without changing any calculations. Wink

#1143: DSP game? Author: Asurya , Location: France

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:07 AM
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Note that in the case of the number representation, the rounding is just an impression, not an actual value:
if I put 0.5 in A1 and =2*A1 in A2, A1 may read 1 because of the format, A2 will still read 1, not 2

=A=

#1144: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:24 PM
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True, but I thought I'd point it out anyway. Might as well get rid of all rounding, even if it's only the appearance of rounding, while we're at it.

NLF, while testing I found the second XP Cost on the Psionics tab is referencing AR24, rather than I24 as it should be to calculate the XP Cost.

#1145: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 03:51 PM
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unleashed wrote:

Why is rounding an unfortunate consequnece of spreadsheets?

Okay, true enough. I guess I should say "exactness" is the unfortunate consequence of spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are exact to a fault. As Asurya states, though, this exactness comes to bear even in the fact that while the spreadsheet may show one number, it uses the actual number in further calculations. In that respect I can make a spreadsheet say that 1+1=0. So it isn't the rounding aspect as much as it is the preciseness.

As for CC ... the reason it round everything to whole numbers is because that is what the rules tell you do do. Technically, having a skill rating of 27 means the first four ranks cost 14 XP, not 13.5. So having it round is mathematically correct, but wrong according to the rules. For the record, there is a very specific reason for this. Most people in the world hate math. Having a system that uses decimals immediately turns off many people. If the system only uses whole numbers, people are much more inclined to use it. So - although it is mathematically wrong - I rules of CC wherever necessary. Which means that technically using decimal skill ranks and decimal powerpoint purchases is wrong. But since we're talking about less than 30 XP over the course of a character's career - I'm not concerned about it in our game here.

I'll look at the rounding on the skills section (It's only the first four ranks that round) and see if I can't come up with something different. As to the AR24 vs. I24 reference, thanks, Unleashed. I fixed it. I'll put it up with an update should I be able to alter the skills section somewhat.

#1146: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 09:14 PM
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Okay, here we have the finalized version (You know ... until something else needs changed.) The fixes in this revision are:

Skills now reflect the rules in Complete Control for rounding. IE, the first four ranks of a skill with a Skill Rating of 27 now cost 14 XP, not 13.5. The first four ranks of a skill with a skill rating of 13 now cost 7, not 6.5.

The error reported by Unleashed about the reference on the psionics tab has been fixed.

The sheet is protected (no password) so that data entry can only occur in the yellow blocks. Of course, anyone can unprotect the sheet.

For those interested, I have included both an Excel 2007 version as well as an Excel 1997-2003 version. They are identical - except for perhaps a few formatting differences between the versions of Excel.

EDIT: Pulled down version 1.5 so that version 1.6 could be added two posts down. Last edited by Nonlethal_Force on Fri Feb 06, 2009 02:22 AM; edited 1 times in total

#1147: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:55 AM
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Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Okay, here we have the finalized version (You know ... until something else needs changed.) The fixes in this revision are:

Skills now reflect the rules in Complete Control for rounding. IE, the first four ranks of a skill with a Skill Rating of 27 now cost 14 XP, not 13.5. The first four ranks of a skill with a skill rating of 13 now cost 7, not 6.5.

The error reported by Unleashed about the reference on the psionics tab has been fixed.

The sheet is protected (no password) so that data entry can only occur in the yellow blocks. Of course, anyone can unprotect the sheet.

For those interested, I have included both an Excel 2007 version as well as an Excel 1997-2003 version. They are identical - except for perhaps a few formatting differences between the versions of Excel.

Just noticed your Save Progression Purchase table isn’t long enough to accommodate 20 levels of saves (only allows 19 due to extra line of information at the top compared to first two tables).

Not a fault as such, but you should probably have all Individual Armour and Weapons cap XP Cost at a quantity of 5 or higher otherwise it just gets silly. (Yes I know if they buy more than 5 individual armour/weapons they might as well use the all option, but that might not be what some people want.)

I assume we’re not worrying too much about wrong numbers coming up before all required numbers are entered like Use-Variable/Progression-Variable Abilities on the Feats-Abilities tab (where it calculates as if there’s a ½ use entered before you enter the number of uses) or Total PP on the Psionics tab (which is adding manifester level into the calculation before an ability score is entered), but I’ll mention them anyway just in case.

Also, there are areas where the spreadsheet is rounding up incorrectly on the Character Sheet tab, not to worry though I’ve got a solution this time instead of just outlining the problem. Very Happy

I’m getting rounding up on both Unspent XP (incorrect) and Spent XP (correct) [6,180 XP to spend and I’m getting 5,720 XP Spent and 461 Unspent XP; I’m spending 292.5 XP on power points so you can see where the problem is coming from].

Also, Needed XP at the end of the level calculation seems to be out by 1 XP (well more accurately 0.5 XP, see above).

The following change fixes all the problems I encountered in that section (well, if you don’t mind being counted 1 level higher when you’re actually 0.5 XP short of a level that is Wink

).

Experience Spent calculation cell: =ROUNDUP(SUM(BE38,Skills!BD39,'Feats-Abilities'!BB43:BD43,Psionics!AS40,Spellcasting!AS40),0)

Which means all the cells that reference that number use the rounded up figure rather than the actual figure the spreadsheet calculated.

Also, I thought I’d simplify a few calculations from the changes you’ve made since v1.0 while I was poking around:

Unspent XP calculation cell: =SUM(BE3,-BE6)
Needed calculation cell: =SUM(BE10,-BE8)

Apart from that everything seems to be working fine, at least in the tests I did.

#1148: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 02:15 AM
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unleashed wrote:

Just noticed your Save Progression Purchase table isn’t long enough to accommodate 20 levels of saves (only allows 19 due to extra line of information at the top compared to first two tables).

Yeah. I know. Sad

But anyone buying 19 levels in a save progression is already buying far more than what they could get in a standard game by anything other than the most aggressive multiclassing. So I'm not too worried about that.

unleashed wrote:

Not a fault as such, but you should probably have all Individual Armour and Weapons cap XP Cost at a quantity of 5 or higher otherwise it just gets silly. (Yes I know if they buy more than 5 individual armour/weapons they might as well use the all option, but that might not be what some people want.)

I suppose ... I mean, I know what you are getting at. It certainly wouldn't change the balance to cap it since by that point they've paid for all weapons of a certain category. But is it really going to come up all that often? Again, I'm not arguing against it. Just saying ...

unleashed wrote:

I assume we’re not worrying too much about wrong numbers coming up before all required numbers are entered like Use-Variable/Progression-Variable Abilities on the Feats-Abilities tab (where it calculates as if there’s a ½ use entered before you enter the number of uses)

Yeah, I altered the hint on that one to indicate putting a zero in the use/progression column to grant the right score before any uses/progressions are bought.

unleashed wrote:

or Total PP on the Psionics tab (which is adding manifester level into the calculation before an ability score is entered), but I’ll mention them anyway just in case.

Fixed that by adding an OR into the formula. While I was at it, I also made it so that a result is only producted if all three are present: bought PP (even zero), Manifester Level, and Ability Score. Thanks for this one. It may not be wrong the other way, but this way it is not more complete.

Unleashed wrote:

In truth, I'm not worried this at all for a very specific reason. According to the rules of CC, decimals should NEVER come up as a final result anyway. Players buying PP for characters using the 50% progression are advised to either buy their powerpoints in pairs (2 for 195 XP) or to pay 98 XP per point (which is no big deal since they're also getting a huge discount already. So, if one is following the rules of Complete Control, one should never have a decimal on their character sheet because of Power Points! Wink

[Now, I personally don't care which is why I never said anything about it earlier.]

Unleashed wrote:

Also, Needed XP at the end of the level calculation seems to be out by 1 XP (well more accurately 0.5 XP, see above).

Understood. But should a person not have decimals in their PP or their skills, this shouldn't come up, either.

Unleashed wrote:

Experience Spent calculation cell: =ROUNDUP(SUM(BE38,Skills!BD39,'Feats-Abilities'!BB43:BD43,Psionics!AS40,Spellcasting!AS40),0)

Which means all the cells that reference that number use the rounded up figure rather than the actual figure the spreadsheet calculated.

Easily enough altered, thanks!

uNLEASHED wrote:

Unspent XP calculation cell: =SUM(BE3,-BE6)
Needed calculation cell: =SUM(BE10,-BE8)

Check. Thanks!

#1149: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 06:05 AM
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unleashed wrote:

I knew there was something else that I was ommitting. Remember that according to the rules, the weapons/armor proficiencies can only be bought as such at character creation with the Initial XP. After the character begins adventuring, if they want to increase their weapon/armor proficiencies they have to buy it as one of the feats.

This is a balance issue. After all, by fifth level or so even being proficient with exotic weapons is dirt cheap otherwise. So, either a player dumps their start-up XP on proficiencies or they pay the cost in feats later on. I know this doesn't invalidate your concern at all - a cap can still be put on. But it isn't like a player is going to be buying more of these than what they do at first level.

#1150: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 08:02 AM
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Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Unleashed wrote:

[Now, I personally don't care which is why I never said anything about it earlier.]

True, but the spreadsheet doesn't allow you to calculate the PP total at 98 XP per point as it is, and CC says [A Game Master can easily round up to 98 XP or allow there players to buy them in pairs for 195 XP.], not that they should. Razz

My concern though was that the spreadsheet was giving a result that didn't add up as it was displayed (showing the numbers 5,720 + 461 which add up to 6181, not 6180 as the correct numbers should). Obviously my fix is wrong though as the problem needs to be fixed at the source rather than at the end, so instead of the change I offered before...

The two psionic cost calculations can simply to be changed to:
=IF(I6="","",ROUNDUP(PRODUCT(IF(ManifesterCaliber1=1,0.5,1),I6,195),0))
and
=IF(I24="","",ROUNDUP(PRODUCT(IF(ManifesterCaliber2=1,0.5,1),I24,195),0))

Which means that extra odd power points cost 98 XP when bought alone for reduced manifesters, and once you've balanced them up to even again they'll cost 195 XP for the pair, nice and neat and no 0.5's left over to mess up any other calculations. Very Happy

While the Expereince Spent cell can have the roundup removed and go back to:

=SUM(BE38,Skills!BD39,'Feats-Abilities'!BB43:BD43,Psionics!AS40,Spellcasting!AS40)

Edit: Fixing a few minor mistakes in grammar. Last edited by unleashed on Fri Feb 06, 2009 08:30 AM; edited 2 time in total

#1151: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 08:15 AM
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Nonlethal_Force wrote:

unleashed wrote:

I realised that a long time ago, it changed one of my previous post significantly. Wink

I'm not worried about it though, I was just offering an idea to stop the purchase of a group of individual armour/weapons costing more than the purchase of all armour/weapons of the same type.

#1152: Re: DSP game? Author: unleashed , Location: Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 08:20 AM
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Nonlethal_Force wrote:

Both of Shahab's arrows fly wide of the target. {OOC: Yes, I did note the lack of penalty for firing into melee. Sorry, Unleashed!}

No problem NLF, can't expect to hit every time ... though does that mean Shahab will do better damage in future when he hits as the 'to hit' die doesn't seem to like him as much anymore. Wink

#1153: DSP game? Author: Angellis_ater , Location: Gävle, Sweden

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 08:44 AM
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Rules questions for the game:

What would be necessary to create items that allow the following:

- Extend the range of an active Worldthought Network
- Allow a user of the item to manifest Mindlink into the Network itself, regardless of the actual range to it?

#1154: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 09:32 PM
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unleashed wrote:

That's it ... use my own words against me! Razz

Unleashed wrote:

Yeah, I hear ya. And a simple round fixes that. It makes sense, for this very reason alone.

Angellis_ater wrote:

Rules questions for the game:

What would be necessary to create items that allow the following:

- Extend the range of an active Worldthought Network
- Allow a user of the item to manifest Mindlink into the Network itself, regardless of the actual range to it?

Off the top of my head ... I'll need to look into it. The first item suggestion would essentially be granting the user a +3 level increase to an ability. In terms of CC, the item in question would be the equivalent of a progression increase. Any items out there grant similar changes to increases to a class ability progression? I'm fine with said item so long as it is priced accordingly.

The second one I'm not quite so keen on. IIRC (and I may not) Mindlink is essentially limitless on the same plane once it is manifest. This would almost completely negate the range aspect of the network - and that is a restriction I rather prefer in the game. But I am not sold on this disapproval, so I could be talked out of it if the right reason came up.

#1155: Re: DSP game? Author: Jaid

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 05:05 AM
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the first one is probably somewhat similar to a chasubel (or however you spell it) of fell power that warlocks can get. or a monk's belt. take your pick Wink

as far as costing it out, well... i'd say there's no set formula for that one. it really depends a lot on the class ability in question, imo.

#1156: DSP game? Author: Lordmonkeysama

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 05:46 AM
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I agree with Jaid here, though both his examples are slightly different than what A_A is asking for: the Chausbel increases the damage of the Warlock's Eldritch Blast, while the Monk's Belt grants you certain abilities of a 5th level monk, or increases you abilities by 5 levels if you were a monk.

I think the best bet is to look to a Rod of Enlarge and maybe go from there. You're taking an ability that is designed to have a limit, and there for Jaid's suggestion aren't as good to go by, since those abilities are more or less supposed to be limitless.

Of course, at 16th level the range increases to any, so A_A should just wait, lol.

#1157: Re: DSP game? Author: Jaid

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 08:33 AM
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in both cases, the items are actually just increasing the class ability by a certain number of levels. the difference is that a society mind's class abilities don't increase linearly, so it looks like something completely different, but ultimately it's still just an increase of the class ability by a few levels.

#1158: Re: DSP game? Author: Nonlethal_Force , Location: (GMT -5:00)

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 03:03 PM
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Lordmonkeysama wrote:

I think the best bet is to look to a Rod of Enlarge and maybe go from there. You're taking an ability that is designed to have a limit, and there for Jaid's suggestion aren't as good to go by, since those abilities are more or less supposed to be limitless.

Assuming you are talking about a Rod of Metamagic Enlarge, I'm not seeing the comparison at all. The Rod of Metamagic Enlarge confers an ability that a character may or may not have to them for a limited times per day. What A_a is asking for is an item that takes an ability a character already has and heightens it to the next available level.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

Of course, at 16th level the range increases to any, so A_A should just wait, lol.

True, but that's a long wait. And I am assuming he's asking for Kess' benefit rather than Kizzt's.

Jaid wrote:

the difference is that a society mind's class abilities don't increase linearly,

They don't? By my account Worldthought Network begins at 1st level and every 3 levels after the range gets a bump. Or do you mean that the effective range isn't linear (Personal, close, medium, long, miles, any, planar)?

#1159: Re: DSP game? Author: Jaid

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 06:13 PM
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was referring to the fact that the range increase is not linear in the second sense... i mean, close range has a linear increase (25+5/2 levels), but close->medium->long is actually multiplying by 4 each time it goes up, miles is not 4 times the others, and in any case, jumping from close->medium->long is in itself not a linear increase in terms of the numbers (though if you just count range categories, i suppose those are increasing in a 'linear' manner for the first three at least... whether or not miles is technically the next category after long isn't really clearly defined, but there's no reason why it couldn't be i suppose =P )

#1160: Re: DSP game? Author: Lordmonkeysama

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 05:30 PM
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NLF, im sure it seems like ive lost interest in the game i asked to be run, but thats not the case. i decided that i want to wait until i can buy the 3rd Dawn book before i make my new character. However i totally forgot to say something to you, which i apologize for. Also i currently dont have the money for the book and im not sure when i will, other than within a few weeks.

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