Asurya wrote:

I "fear" the second is better as far as balance goes. Invocations (even least ones) are really useful, even at higher level. =A=

Exactly. If I were playing a Warlock or DFA I'd like the first progression, but then I wouldn't play a Warlock or DFA. I'd probably grab a bunch of the useful least/lesser invocations (unnamed bonus to certain skills; flight; see invis/darkvision among others) and be done with it. Either that, or I'd be happy that I was able to grab Eldritch Blast, all the essences I wanted for that, PLUS be able to get a bunch of the utility invocations for a nice price.

But, I think the second one is more balanced.

This reminds me, I originally priced Eldritch Blast as a 1st lv progression variable ability, much like the monk's damage, but I forgot that the EB is Spell Resistance: Yes. So, then I just used the Warlock Invocation Level to determine the Caster Level for SR checks, but now I am thinking that this is more of a Level/Progression variable ability and should be priced as such, instead of as two different abilities. The Warlock's text even states that EB isn't an invocation, but can be modified by them. The only problem is that increasing the damage dice of EB is extremely cheap.

Also, I see that in the SRD article under Dragon Disciple "Breath Weapon" is Priced as a 1st level Level Variable. I thought this would have to mean 1st level Level/Progression Variable because it seems like a progression variable ability, and while it is not subject to SR, some things such as the breath weapon DC, length of the breath weapon, and eligibility for breath effects as governed by level.

Here is my progression for the DFA by the way (minus the invocations)
(DFA: www.wizards.com/defaul...mp;page=2)

Breath Weapon: 1st level Level/Progression Variable (this governs the DC of the Breath Weapon, length increase, and eligibility for breath effects).

Natural Armor +1 (to 5): 2nd level Progression Variable

Breath Effects: priced as Constant 2nd/5th/10th/15th level (depending on the minimum level they can be acquired at). They have prereq Breath Weapon Level at the minimum level they can be acquired at.

Dragonkin: 4th level Constant

Damage Resistance: 6th Level Progression Variable. This "progression" only has two steps but it is DR/magic and I compared it vs the same DR if bought as a Warlock (DR/cold iron) and Barbarian (DR/-). It comes out less this way, which is good because DR/magic is much worse than DR/cold iron or DR/-.

Immunities: 19th level Constant

Dragontouched: n/a; it is a feat gaining ability.

I haven't added up all the parts of the class though to see what a 20th level DFA "costs" though.

EDIT: By my calculations a non-human DFA with Int 14 costs 144,889. Adding in 8 invocations at 20th Caster LV with access to all grades of invocations is 37,585 for a total of 182,474.

I've love to see how you priced out a DFA though, NLF.

bgbill wrote:

The marshall is from the miniatures handbook and gets minor and major auras at different times. Here's a link to the class on Wizard's website. www.wizards.com/defaul.../20030906b

Sweetness! I'll have some time later this evening to look at it and distill it and report back.

---

ASIDE: Forgive my use of horizontal rules lately. I have fallen in love with them when speaking about multiple things/posts in a thread. If that annoys anyone, let me know. But now, back to the DFA/Invocations:

bgbill wrote:

Breath Weapon: 1st level Level/Progression Variable (this governs the DC of the Breath Weapon, length increase, and eligibility for breath effects).

Spot on. Should come out to 4,230 XP total. {Ever wonder why they didn't go to 10 die instead of breaking their progression to only get to 9?}

bgbill wrote:

Natural Armor +1 (to 5): 2nd level Progression Variable

You've got it. The way you've typed itout, I'm assuming we do it the same. Access costs 360, first improvement costs 180, second 360,etc. Thus, the 2nd level ability as written actually costs 900 XP for acess, and an increase all the way up to +2. That's how I do it, at least. Overall cost: 3,060

bgbill wrote:

Breath Effects: priced as Constant 2nd/5th/10th/15th level (depending on the minimum level they can be acquired at). They have prereq Breath Weapon Level at the minimum level they can be acquired at.

Agreed. I have thought about doing a progression variable forthem but that would totally take out the cost factor. And, in this case the more expensive ones are often better. So yes, I agree. Overall cost: 15,390.

bgbill wrote:

Dragonkin: 4th level Constant

Bingo! Overall cost: 1,080 XP

bgbill wrote:

Damage Resistance: 6th Level Progression Variable. This "progression" only has two steps but it is DR/magic and I compared it vs the same DR if bought as a Warlock (DR/cold iron) and Barbarian (DR/-). It comes out less this way, which is good because DR/magic is much worse than DR/cold iron or DR/-.

You've got it. Overall Cost: 2,700 XP. {Aside: in the price I gave a few posts back, I undercut this one. For some reason I calculated this as a 4th level Progression. Probably a carryover from the previous ability. But that meansmy overall total changes.}

bgbill wrote:

Immunities: 19th level Constant

This will surprise you, but I price this near-capstone ability as a 4th level Constant. This is because the Dragan Shaman (PHBII) receives the immunities listed here (and actally a little better, iirc) as a 4th level ability. So for me, Overall Cost: 1080 XP

bgbill wrote:

Dragontouched: n/a; it is a feat gaining ability

Excellent!

Great job pricing it out as a whole. I am impressed.

bgbill wrote:

I assume that you are keeping a "Warlock/DFA Caster Level" in order to set a level for spell resistance/dispel checks, as well as for invocations where caster level matters (like Draconic Toughness).

Absolutely. This should cost 5,745 if they go the whole way to 20th level.

---

Asurya wrote:

BUT I like the first better. I don't care about steep gaps, I like when low-level (grade) stuff is priced less than high-level one. Anyway, taking feat progression as an example, I "fear" the second is better as far as balance goes. Invocations (even least ones) are really useful, even at higher level.

Yeah, that's where I come down, too. But, as bgbill says, there are a few least and greater invocations that are actually more useful than the dark ones. It's that thought alone that keeps pushing me to the second solution as well. And ultimately, the second solution follows nicely with the precedent established for pricing maneuvers for the Bo9S maneuvers/stances in the article put up. I was lookng at that last night as I was trying to figure out which I liked better. But I totally understand where you are coming from. I like when "lesserstuff" costs lesser XP. But itruly needs to be "lesser" without any doubt.

Note for all following this thread:

The Character Calculator has been added to my first post of this thread. It is a free download, but you do need to be logged in to see it and download. I just wanted everyone to know of this addition andto know that it is in an easily accessible location now. [As opposed to being buried in the OOC thread for the PbP!]

hey NLF, in the class features write-up section of CC, you have Fast Movement being a Level 1 Constant that costs 540 XP as opposed to the 270 all the rest cost. Is this a typo, or am i missing something that sets Fast Movement apart from the rest?

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

hey NLF, in the class features write-up section of CC, you have Fast Movement being a Level 1 Constant that costs 540 XP as opposed to the 270 all the rest cost. Is this a typo, or am i missing something that sets Fast Movement apart from the rest?

No, that's likely a type-o. If you want the truth about what I do in my games, I use it as a progression variable and tie in the progression found in another class. I think the other class is the scout.

Can i use that in your game then? and what would be the costs?

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

Can i use that in your game then? and what would be the costs?

Sure. It's priced as a 1st level progression variable with two progressions (10' up to 20').

And now for something completely different:

My take on the Factotum from Dungeonscape!

Trapfinding 1st Level Constant (as rogue)

Brains over Brawn 3rd Level Constant

Improved Cunning Defense 16th Level Constant

Inspiration 1st Level Progression

This is the core of the class and the following abilities spend these inspiration points in order to be used. The factotum ends up getting 10 at 20th lv and the following abilities use between 1-4 inspiration points each. Inspiration points are refreshed after each encounter.

Cunning Insight 1st Level Constant
Cunning Defense 3rd Level Constant
Cunning Strike 4th Level Constant
Cunning Surge 8th Level Constant
Cunning Breach 11th Level Constant

The following two abilities require inspiration points and can only be used 1/day. Since Use-Variable abilities with one use and constant abilities cost the same amount they can be priced as either, if the DM wants to let the players buy more daily uses.

Cunning Knowledge 1st Level Constant OR Use-Variable (1 use)
Cunning Dodge 13th Level Constant OR Use-Variable (1 use)

Opportunitstic Piety 5th Level Level/Use Variable

Cunning Brilliance 19th Level Level/Use Variable
The level variable part is because you use the ability at your Factotum Level and the use part is because you can only use the ability 1/day.

Factotum Spellcasting is a bit weird. They can cast 8 spells/day at 20th, one of which can be 7th level and the others must be 6th or lower. They prepare spells, but then cast them as SLAs, so...

Arcane Dilettante 2nd Level Progression Variable
This governs the number of spells they can have. Normal spell slots won't work because they can prepare X number of spells, but only one of the maximum level they can cast. They also must buy the following to cast spells (at 50% cost for being limited).

Factotum Caster Level 2nd Level Level Variable
Access to Factotum Spell Levels 0-7

By my calculations a 20th lv Factotum with 16 int will run 164,734, which I understand is a bit low.

However, the Factotum has a limited amount of Inspiration with which to use its abilities and could benefit from a few more points to remain competitve at high level (so much that an Inspiration-gaining feat was introduced in a web supplement).

Interesting to see other classes turned into CC progressions and thankyou for sharing!

Congratulations on making an excellent sourcebook.

Just out of curiosity, are there any conversions out there for the Pathfinder RPG? I'm going to start the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path and I'd like to introduce my players to Complete Control while using the Beta rules.

Even better, could a small conversion pdf be in the works with the release of Paizo's Compatibility License ?

All Pathfinder material is OGL, so there is no particular need for the PCL, unless we want to indicate direct compatability. I would've thought it would be pretty easy to convert Pathfinder using the CC by itself. Has anything changed rulesmechanically?

Angellis_ater wrote:

All Pathfinder material is OGL, so there is no particular need for the PCL, unless we want to indicate direct compatability. I would've thought it would be pretty easy to convert Pathfinder using the CC by itself. Has anything changed rulesmechanically?

I'm thinking specifically of the way they jazzed up the Barbarian Rage ability. At 1st level you gain Rage which uses Rage Points each round to fuel the ability. Then at 2nd level and every two levels afterward you begin to get Rage Powers, which are various stunts you can perform while raging that also require a handful of Rage Points to use. These Rage points are gained at a certain amount plus your Con at each level.

So, is Rage a constant ability still? With the accumulation of Rage Points as some kind of progression? It almost works out as a Level/Use Variable Progression until you get to Greater Rage. Rage Powers themselves I see as simply being constant abilities, although subordinate to Rage. I can't think of any ability in the SRD that would be comparable to this.

Then of course there's the ability for all casters to cast 0-level spells as an at will spell-like ability. My player who wanted to play a sorcerer thought that buying more than one 0-level spell slot was a waste of his points. I couldn't really argue with that, but thought that perhaps that it should be purchased as a level one constant, but the sorcerer, by not needing to prepare spells, would still receive a significant advantage over other casters by not having to spend additional points on unneeded 0-level slots.

That's the sort of thing I'm running into. My players are excited about using the Complete Control rules and are wanting to make their characters right away, even though we have months before our current campaign will be finished. Most the of conversion works just fine with a lot of abilities mostly unchanged from the SRD, but occasionally I'll run into something that has an unusual mechanic and get stumped on which progression to use.

toxycycline wrote:

Congratulations on making an excellent sourcebook.

Thank you!

toxycycline wrote:

Even better, could a small conversion pdf be in the works with the release of Paizo's Compatibility License ?

I honestly haven't looked at Pathfinder, so I'm not a huge help inthis dimension. However, I can grant you a few avenues. First, if there is a way to link me to the barbarian class (or if it is OGL could you copy and paste the abilities in question into a PM) and I'll take a look at them.

Second, what I like to do when I have something in question is to take a spreadsheet and build it with everything bought at a given level on the same line. Thus, I can sum the line out and see how much each level costs with the known prices. That way, I can then figure out what I don't know and ball-park the final product to the price that I feel is an appropriate rank.

So, let me knowif any of this helps and ifI can be of more assistance I'll gladly try!

NLF, Pathfinder Beta is a free download and i believe there's a link right on Paizo's front page. I sadly have no idea how to copy/paste from a PDF so i can't help you there.

Okay, after having a look at the Pathfinder stuff, I'll throw out a suggestion. If you make the rage ability a level-based variable it should work. I would add the following text in lieu of merging CC with Pathfinder:

Rage:
Type: Level-Variable
Initial cost: 45 XP
Next Improvement: 30 XP

The character has access to [(2+CON)*(ability level)+2] Rage points.

---

Now, with respect to Rage powers, I would personally go with making the Rage powers a subordinate ability with the cost equal to the minimum level where they could be accessed. This does jump the cost of the BArbarian by a few thousand XP over the 3.x barbarian, but it has room to give and still comes in under the curve even with these adjustments. But, making them subordinate abilities would mean the following:

Animal Fury: 30 XP
Clear Mind 240 XP
Increased DR: 360 XP
Elemental Rage: 360 XP
Guarded Stance: 30 XP
Intimidating Glare: 30 XP
Knockback: 30 XP
Low-light Vision: 30 XP
Mighty Swing: 240 XP
Moment of Clarity: 30 XP
Night Sight: 30 XP
Powerful Blow: 30 XP
Quick Reflexes: 30 XP
Renewed Vigor: 180 XP
Rolling Dodge: 30 XP
Roused Anger: 30 XP
Strength Surge: 30 XP
Surprise Accuracy: 30 XP
Swift Foot: 30 XP
Terrifying Howl: 240 XP
Unexpected Strike: 240 XP


How's that sounds?

Nonlethal_Force wrote:

How's that sounds?

Sounds perfect.

I like the merging of the Rage Points and it's progression directly with the progression of Rage. Less XP used, less headache, and that's essentially how it's written in the ability description.

It will be nice to have that cleared up before we start character creation. Thanks again for your help NLF.

NLF does an awesome job as the author of CC! We're proud to have him aboard!

Thanks for the comment, A_a.

toxycycline wrote:

It will be nice to have that cleared up before we start character creation. Thanks again for your help NLF.

Certainly. I hope that it works out for you with all the other minor changes Pathfinder has made. Although I'm not a Pathfinder expert, I'm certainly willing to help out where I can. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Oh, did you find the character sheet calculator in my first post of this thread? It's set up for 3.x, but I can't imagine that it would be to hard to alter the formulas for what changes Pathfinder makes.

Now that I've got a good grasp on how to price abilities, I've been having a blast typing up abilities for Pathfinder.

With the inclusion of additional abilities that Pathfinder gives all the classes, anyone running a game with CC will have to adjust the XP rewards upwards in order to compensate. Other than that it's a relatively seamless switch.

I do have a question about the Favored Enemy ability though. The first progression of the ability costs 270 XP, which gives a character +2 vs. their Favored Enemy. Does the second progression give +4 and a +2 vs. an additional enemy type? Or would each Favored Enemy progression be advanced separately?

Since it's a 1st level ability it's rather inexpensive, potentially giving a character 6 Favored Enemy types with the highest at a +12 for a paltry 2070 XP if it's the former. So I'm inclined to think it's the latter. I'd love to get your take on it.

You raise a good question about Favored enemy.

About the "adjusting the reward to compensate", I must say I'm surprised: I thought Pathfinder was about bringing the weak class up to speed with the others. As CC is fundamentally a mathematical thing, it should (and it does as far as I understood) factor the power level of a class. I.E. it should cost more to emulate a "straight-jacket" Wizard than a "straight-jacket" Fighter. If CC factors that in (and so already compensate: the Fighter player can buy more stuff), wouldn't you over compensate?

=A=