Asurya wrote:

You raise a good question about Favored enemy. About the "adjusting the reward to compensate", I must say I'm surprised: I thought Pathfinder was about bringing the weak class up to speed with the others. As CC is fundamentally a mathematical thing, it should (and it does as far as I understood) factor the power level of a class. I.E. it should cost more to emulate a "straight-jacket" Wizard than a "straight-jacket" Fighter. If CC factors that in (and so already compensate: the Fighter player can buy more stuff), wouldn't you over compensate? =A=

A straight 3.5 Wizard 20 "costs" around 180k xp to build IIRC. A straight Pathfinder Beta Wizard 20 has all of the same class features/feats/HD/BAB except as follows:

HD changes from d4 to d6
Gets 4 more feats (All characters get a feat at even levels instead of every 3 levels)
Cantrips castable at will
can prepare one more spell per spell lv 1-9
School Powers at 1st/8th/20th level

So you'd need more xp to replicate the Pathfinder Wiz 20 compared to the 3.5 Wiz 20. This was done intentionallly b/c they feel that classes from later 3.5 supplements were more powerful than the basic classes so they are trying to bring them closer together in power level.

toxycycline wrote:

With the inclusion of additional abilities that Pathfinder gives all the classes, anyone running a game with CC will have to adjust the XP rewards upwards in order to compensate. Other than that it's a relatively seamless switch.

Totally your call on this, it is up to each GM to find their own sense of balance, of course.

toxycycline wrote:

I do have a question about the Favored Enemy ability though. The first progression of the ability costs 270 XP, which gives a character +2 vs. their Favored Enemy. Does the second progression give +4 and a +2 vs. an additional enemy type? Or would each Favored Enemy progression be advanced separately?

It would work as per the class description. So, the second progression would be the +4/+2. The third progression would either be +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2.

toxycycline wrote:

Since it's a 1st level ability it's rather inexpensive, potentially giving a character 6 Favored Enemy types with the highest at a +12 for a paltry 2070 XP if it's the former. So I'm inclined to think it's the latter. I'd love to get your take on it.

If you are worried about the cost, throw in level dependant requirements. A player can't get the second progression until they've spent enough XP to be 4th level. Third progression can't be bought until 9th level.

bgbill wrote:

A straight 3.5 Wizard 20 "costs" around 180k xp to build IIRC. A straight Pathfinder Beta Wizard 20 has all of the same class features/feats/HD/BAB except as follows: HD changes from d4 to d6 Gets 4 more feats (All characters get a feat at even levels instead of every 3 levels) Cantrips castable at will can prepare one more spell per spell lv 1-9 School Powers at 1st/8th/20th level So you'd need more xp to replicate the Pathfinder Wiz 20 compared to the 3.5 Wiz 20. This was done intentionallly b/c they feel that classes from later 3.5 supplements were more powerful than the basic classes so they are trying to bring them closer together in power level.

What I would recommend in building each class and figure out a nice average number that a 20th level character can be build for. As far as this goes, however, note that a CC wizard does have a fair bit of room to buy morethings than acleric or druid. The HD can be assumed by the defecit. The feats likely can as well. Cantrips at will is probably just a first level ability, so that's not most. More spells per level is assumed by buying manifester levels/casting ability so wouldn't cost any more. School Powers likely would also be an additional cost. However, my guess is that a CC Pathfinder wizard should be able to be bought under CC's normal rules without having to adjust it upward for much because the CC wizard has a little room to grow.

Hi! Just bought Complete Control. It looks great! I have a couple of questions.

1. Do you have to buy access to spell levels underneath the one you want? For example, if I only want 3rd level sorcerer-wizard spells, can I just pay the 3rd-level access, or do I have to buy 0,1, and 2?

2. I priced out a level 1 sorcerer vs a level 1 figher, an the sorcerer was much more expensive. Those spell slots seem very pricey!. For example, just the spell access and slots for a sorcerer are (Access 0+1 = 60) + (5 Slots 0 = 850) + (3 Slots 1 = 1020). This totals 1930 XP. The fighter's comparables are the proficiencies, BAB+1 and a feat. These are far cheaper. Reasoning?

3. What would you do if someone wanted to make a spell at-will? Would you have to find a different 3.5 class for that? Or, is there a way to make slots / access any cheaper if you are only taking one spell / college? Maybe a 25% rather than a 50% discount? For example, I constantly have character ideas where they really only have one or two good powers. I'd like to forgo access to other spells to make them usable very frequently.

Thanks!
~sean

I can answer a few of these, having gamed with the author.

1. Yes, you need to buy progressively.

2. The reasoning is to make more balanced characters. In general, sorcerors are better than fighters. However, did you account for different sized Hit Die?

3. I'll let NLF answer this one. But make sure to take a look in the Articles, there are a lot of extra info in those!

a d12 is only 90 points! El cheapo compared to the 1000 XP for the 1st level slots.

Which means that you have a bunch of XP to make a more balanced Fighter with. Buy 2 hit die, add another point of BAB, give him a little bonus damage with a Sneak Attack. Loads of ways to make the Fighter.

Because the biggest loser n the 3.5 paradigm was the Fighter. Now, you can make him atleast the equal to the Sorceror.

hmm, i cant be positive but the math might be wrong there on the spell access. reason being is that NLF said that u should be able to recreate any class at first level for 1500 to 2000xp. if those numbers are just how much XP it takes to buy a Sorc's spellcasting the 2k XP is quite a bit off. id like to think NLF didnt invalidate one whole class(perhaps more) in his amazing creation.

Sorry for the delay in posting. I went away with my with for a few days and now am back for a week. But thankfully A_a nailed the answers he gave you!

As fr why spell levels are so much more than their respective counterparts, you also need to remember the way that the individual classes are built. The sorcerer only gets one schtick, period. If you look at their class in the 3.5 SRD, all they get is familiar (which most people can leave or take anyway) and spell casting. So to reproduce a sorcerer in CC you have one big purchase per level on spells.

To ease that purchase, it made sense to pull away caster level andmake that a level-variable ability. But realistically, the sorcerer build comes down to this: buy the cheapest HD, buy the cheapest BAB, buy the cheapest feat progression, buy the cheapest save progression, and buy spell levels with slots. So the class that is focused on buying the cheapest everything else gets all their expenditures concentrated in a single area. THat's going to make the numbers look inflated until you actually build one to level 3, or 6, or 12, or whatever.

Add to this fact that when the sorcerer gets an upgrade, it really only gets one every other level. On the levels where it doesn't get a new spell level it gets a minor boost in the cheapest HD, cheapest BAB, cheapest save progression, and maybe a few spell slots. I mean, to be fair ... compare the purchases of a 2nd level sorcerer with the purchases of any other class (except the wizard and psion who are really sorcerer-esque in design). The Barbarian is spending primo HD, a class ability, and primo BAB. The fighter is buying primo BAB, a better than average HD, several feats above the curve. The monk is buying tons of abilities (the worth of them is debatable, though), the absolute best save progression, an average BAB, and an average HD. The reality is that in order to keep the sorcerer on pace as being one of the best classes it is priced the way that it is. Playing a sorcerer largely means hording XP to blow it all at once in the CC game.

My advice for people who want to spend XP more often is to take a progression like the warmage, where you limit yourself in available power but also then benefit greatly from getting the 50% reduction in cost and thus have additional resources to spend.

Now, as to the spell-at-will option, I would give advice that is highly speculative based on the spell chosen. Obviously, some spells are much more powerful at-will than others. Some spells I would never allow at will. Other spells I would allow at will. But here's what I suggest:

At-Will Class Ability
Your character has the ability to use a spell from any spell/power list at-will. Once chosen, the spell/power cannot be altered in any way. The caster/manifester level of the spell power is equal to: (ability level purchased)/(X), where X is a number between 1 and 2 chosen by the Game Master to balance the variable nature of the spell chosen.


What this ability will do is let you buy into it at first evel for 45 XP, then increase it each level for the incremental cost as described in CC. Overall, the ability will cost a bit over 5,000 XP by 20th level. That's a fair trade of for a highly specialized ability.

As for the "X" component of the class, this gives the Game Master some control. If the Game Master chooses 1, then caster/manifester level equals abilty level. If the game Master chooses 2, then the caster/manifester level always equals half (rounded down) of the ability level. Should the Game Master pick 1.5, then the caster/manifester level would always equal 3/4 of the purchased ability level. In this manner the Game Master can control exactly how useful this ability can ultimately grow.

But, just my solution. And this has been playtested in no way, shape, or form. SO please don't think that this suggestion is guaranteed to work. It sounds great on paper, but paper and practice are often two different beasts.

hey NLF i was just wondering if CC could be used to create new races or monsters? if it can be how? if it cant then i would love to see a new book from u on how to design such.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

hey NLF i was just wondering if CC could be used to create new races or monsters?

Unfortunately, CC was not designed for such activity - although it would not really be too hard. All that is really needed is a common list of races (with or without LA) so that proper guidelines could be produced. I wouldn't use XP or anything to drive the system, though, as it would just complicate things.

The hardest part of the task would be compiling a list of commonly accepted races according to their LA. And realistically it is something that could be done here on the boards with the end result being free.

Note that the book Savage Species was built around building player races. The idea was to build them from Monster descriptions, but most of the advice can be applied to spontaneous creations.

The_Mess wrote:

Note that the book Savage Species was built around building player races. The idea was to build them from Monster descriptions, but most of the advice can be applied to spontaneous creations.

Very good thought. And that is exactly the type of direction that I would go with it. So ... that sounds like the easiest resource to turn to (and likely use rather than creating a new one!).

Savage Species isn't very mathematical, though. While there's a lot of practical advice, it boils down to, "Pick the class the race is most suited for and compare it to a human of that class at level 5. If it seems over powered, add LA and compare again." Still, the practical advice is mostly good.

Fair enough. I guess what I was thinking is whether or not a racial thing could be point based. I suppose it could be ... just not points that are based off of XP. Actually, a system like that would bereally cool for something like a Star Wars universe where the number of races is potentially limitless - just like the environments that they could come from.

I would love to see a "Complete Races" book which allows me to customize races and subraces

For those interested in Complete Races, I have started a new thread dedicated to that possibility.

Why are progression variable abilities so cheap? Favored Enemy and Monk’s unarmed damage cost the same as a constant ability for their first progression, but then they get ridiculously cheap after that. With monks unarmed damage you can pay the base of 180 XP, the, first progression for 90, second progression 180, third progression 270, forth progression 360, fifth progression 450, and the sixth progression 540, for a total of 2070 XP to do 4d8 damage per hit if you take Improved Natural Attack feat. When the monk gets his highest damage at 20th level, is that ability not equivalent to a 20th level constant ability. Should it not cost the same XP?

Why not have progression variable abilities cost the same as a constant ability when a new progression is gained minus what you have previously spent on the ability?

For example, I buy my favored enemy and spend 270 XP. Then I buy my second favored enemy (5th level for a ranger) it would cost the same as a fifth level constant ability (1,350) but I can subtract what I have already spent eg. 270XP. So for the 2nd progression I pay 1080 XP.

There is a needed sense of balance. 1st level progression variables are cheap. 5th level progression variables are average priced. 8th level progression variables get pricey. If you look at the quik reference tables in the back, you can see just how expensive progression variables get.

Here are some real stats so you can see the balance:
20th level constant price: 5,745 XP
1st level progression (with 10 progressions a la Sneak Attack): 5,130 XP
3rd level progression (with 6 progressions): 6,210 XP
5th level progression (with 4 progressions): 5,400 XP
8th level progression (with 3 progressions): 5,760 XP
12th level progression (with 2 progressions): 5,400 XP

Now,my argument would be that the typical 1st level progression variable with 10 progressions still isn't as powerful as a 20th level constant variable. Yes, there are exceptions. But most capstone abilities are more powerful that a 1st level progression variable ability with 10 progressions bought. The same would be true through all the other examples listed. Butthere is an inherent mathematical balance thatis asserted throughout the work in relation to the level (assumed power) of an ability and how many progressions you can buy.

I hope that this helps.

As for your suggestions, thereis nothing wrong with what you suggest except that the amount of bookkeeping is increased. Your system would work fine, but it would require excellent bookkeeping skills. Additionally, the reason it was not done this way in thiswork is because not all progression abilities have thesame amount of progressions and they often do not occur at the same rate. So, it is a more complex and less "uniform" system in practice. However, as I said, if you want to run it as you suggest, you could certainly do so.

However, I do not agree with your original premise. Favored Enemy with a second progression is not equal in power to most 5th level constant abilities. But, that is also just my opinion. When you are increasing a progression, you are not gaining a new ability, you are enhancing a previously existing ability. So you are not more versatile, just more powerful in an already existing way. In terms of D&D power, versatility is often more powerful than strength. Thus, progression variables often do not keep up with constant abilities in terms of power at a given level.

The paladin is an awesome example of this. The paladin's abilities make it rock through 5th level (or so). But by 20th level, how many people are still playing a straight paladin?

Im not sure if NLF took this into account but when i was explaining CC to a friend i realized most, if not all, progression abilities are situational. This might be part of y they are cheap. or could just a coincedence

Hey, I was just wondering if my calculations were correct for buying the binder abilities. Here's what I got.

Binder Level 1 45 (level variable)
Binder Level 2 30 (level variable)
Binder Level 3 60 (level variable)
Soul Binding Ability 270 (constant ability) (or would this be a level as well since it gets upgraded to bind more vestiges)
One (1) Level 2 Vestige 60 (subordinate 2nd level ability)

For a total of 465 for a level 3 Binder?