I was kind of bored just now, so I thought I'd try to convert the binder class for you.

Suppress Sign: 2nd lv constant

Pact Augmentation: 2nd level progression variable with 5 steps

Soul Guardian Immunity to fear: 3rd level constant. Paladins get this at 3rd level without any conditions.

Soul Guardian Slippery Mind: 9th level constant

Soul Guardian Energy Drain: 13th level constant

Soul Guardian Mind Blank: Not sure about this one; don't think it deserves lv 19. There are a few classes that get this in the various splat books and binding Haures gets it at ECL 12. I'd probably price it as a level 13 constant. I'd also make the Soul Guaridan Abilities prereqs for each other in the order given in Tome of Magic.

As for Soul Binding, I'd price it like this:

Binder Lv 1st lv variable

I'd then make each soul binding a constant ability at the level it is given. To do it any other way makes it way undercosted and even doing it this way the binder still comes up a little short.

Soul binding (1 vestige) 1st lv constant
2nd vestige 8th lv constant
3rd vestige 14th lv constant
4th vestige 20th lv constant

In addition, I'd use the psionic power manifesting access at full price to determine prices for access to the Soul Binds per level.

Keep in mind that the vestiges grand a suite of powerful and often unlimited use abilities to the binder. Even with all these costs the binder still only comes up to around 166k xp to make at 20th lv. I think this is a little short.

I remember that NLF posted his design targets and the breakdowns for each class on enworld once, but I can't find the post.

Thank you for the quick response. That all lines up with what I was thinking except I'm a little confused about the psionic manifesting? So if I bought Level 1 powers I would get 3 vestiges (instead of 3 powers)? At level 2 you would get 5, etc?

I would charge a binder for accessing 1st level Vestiges and 2nd lv vestiges and 3rd lv vestiges... up to 8th lv Vestiges. I would charge them 50xp in order to use 1st lv Vestiges; 240 for 2nd lv Vestiges, 720 for 3rd lv Vestiges... up to 8th lv Vestiges. I would charge them for access to the higher lv vestiges much like how psions or wizards are charged for spell/power caster lv access.

grffnhwk,

Unfortunately, I would love to help you in your Binder search, but I don't have access to the book in which it can be found. Without that information, I cannot be of much help.

Having said that, bgbill's post seems to make a fair amount of sense in accordance with CC's mechanics. But that isn't an educated opinion. It is merely an opinion based on looking at the mechanics proposed in bgbill's post and assuming they make sense to the abilities to which they refer.

Please accept my apologies in this matter.

NLF

bgbill wrote:

I remember that NLF posted his design targets and the breakdowns for each class on enworld once, but I can't find the post

I looked myself and couldn't find them. I hopethat they weren't deleted!

Binder is in the Tome of Magic.

Yeah, thanks. But unfortunately, that is one of the books that I never bought. But I appreciate you making sure that I know where to find it!

How would you work the cost of this ability?

Psychic Aura (Su): All
divine minds know three basic
auras: attack, defense, and perception
(see below). In addition,
your chosen mantle adds a specialized
aura to your options. You chose
one aura to manifest, and its benefits
take effect in a radius around you as given
on Table 1–3. Most auras affect either you and
your allies or just your enemies. As you become
more powerful, your aura spreads to
encompass a wider area. If you know
multiple mantles, you chose which aura
to manifest when you meditate. You can
spend an hour in meditation to change
your aura.
At 10th level, you can have two auras active at the same
time; at 20th level, you can have three active auras.
Attack: You and all allies within your aura gain a +1 morale
bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. This bonus increases
by 1 for every five class levels you have.
Defense: You and all allies within your aura gain a +1 morale
bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases by 1 for every
five class levels you have.
Perception: You and all allies within your aura gain a +2
morale bonus on Initiative, Listen, and Spot checks. This
bonus increases by 1 for every five class levels you have.

grffnhwk wrote:

How would you work the cost of this ability?

Great question. Unfortunately, I am away on vacation and only have snipets of time here and there. But I should have an answer up on or before this coming weekend. Right now, I am creating a solution in my mind. What I want to do before I get home is actually build a divine mind and look at the pricings. Because the ability is too powerful for a simple 1st level progression variable because it affects 3 different aspect and each aspect can grow. However, I don't know if three progression variables is too much (especialy at level 1). I doubt it is too much in the overall scheme of things by 20th level, though.

In the end, please don't think I have forgotten you. I just want to answer you with a proven solution - and that may take a few days until I am off of vacation!

Okay, as promised I've done somethinking around this one.

Straight by the Rules
This ability has a level variable aspect ( +1 for every 5 levels), progression variable (radius of effect), and variable (number of auras capable of being active at any time.

So, first it would be a level variable starting at 1 (for 45 XP) and increasing by 30 XP for each level. This would grant a +1 aura for levels 1-4, +2 for 5-9, +3 for 10-14, +4 for 15-19, and +5 for level 20. This would a total of 5,745 XP

Second, there is a progression variable aspect by radius. CC indicates that a progression variable joined with a level variable should cost 30 XP per level. So, 30 XP for a 5 ft radius, 60 XP for 10 ft radius, etc. This ultimately would cost 1,650 XP.

Third, there is the progression variable for how many auras can be active at a time. Again, this is a progression variable so 30 XP for 1 aura, 60 XP for the2nd aura, and 90 XP for the third aura. Altogether 180 XP. This feels a bitlow to me and if I were to adjust anything this would be the area that i would adjust upwards. However, considering the overall cost for the total package, this ability need not be altered, either.

Sorry if this is already on here but, how would you determine incarnum abilities (soulmelds/essentia/chakra binds only, not the other abilities, they are easy enough).

Unfortunately, I am going to direct you to the reply in the thread you started. But, if you haven't already read that one ... don't get excited. The reality is that I have no frame of reference with Incarnum at all.

i think there's an example of incarnum in their previews...

I know NLF isn't around much, but perhaps others can give me some guidance:

I want to use Complete Control to design my own class, which is something NLF said was possible and something i know he's already done himself.

My problem is, how exactly? the system itself is based on not having classes and therefore, everything based on level is bought. what i'm confused over is how i would i handle things like BAB, Skills, Saves, Etc that are gained as one levels? normally in the CC system, those are bought as one desires and in the amount one desires. However, in a game with classes these features are gained automatically and in a set progression.

So how do i blend the two together?

It's quite simple, LMS. It's even more simple if you have something like Excel to do the cumulative math for you.

First thing I would do is if you are creating something for a game that still uses classes, then you're going to be working in a "level/progression" mindset. So, pick your BAB progression, skill point progression, and your save progression. On paper (or better yet in Excel) write each of those progressions out just like the class charts in any product that you might buy. Then, figure out the cost for each, and sum up how much you have spent already at each level.

Then, figure out if you want the class to be psionic/magic/both. Figure out that progression level by level, figure out the prices, and then find the new totals spent for every level. That should tell you how much everything has costed per level for ever aspect of the character except abilities. It should also tell you how much you have left to spend per level on abilities.

Last, go back and fill in the gaps. Find out how much you have to spend per level and spent it where you think is appropriate. In the end, you should have a character that has the progressions that you want and a "reasonable" package of abilities to make it balanced given the progressions you want.

And if you have it in a spreadsheet where it can do all the math for you, it's nothing. If I already know the prices of some abilities I want to design a class around, I can usually design a class in 5 - 10 minutes given an Excel sheet. But, I have done this many times before ... so your first attempt (even with a spreadsheet) will likely take a good bit longer. But once you do one or two, you will be able to design classes in far less time than it takes a normal person to create a character to play in a game.

Question for NLF: are you still entertaining the possibility of a Complete Race book?

Go for the hat trick!

Alzrius wrote:

Question for NLF: are you still entertaining the possibility of a Complete Race book? Go for the hat trick!

Well, I have all the data gathered, but I've not really come to any justifiable conclusion. In other words, there is no way to justify what WotC and DSP have done with races that boils down into a product that produces a reasonably balanced result. I think that the problem is that too many people in too many games have had too many ideas one what makes a "balanced race" to produce a useful product.

It isn't that I don't want to do a Complete Races book. It's more like I don't believe that a Complete Races book can be done and have it be balanced to a level where it actually lives up to its claim. From my perspective, Complete Control does live up to its claim (and part of the claim is that the characters created will be slightly more powerful than a standard game because the player has the ability to optimize their selections for the character's needs). Complete Gear also lives up to its claim of maintaining balance largely because it doesn't change any of the mechanics, just how the economy system of a game world works. I don't think I could make a work that says "this book will allow GMs to design races that are balanced with each other" (regardless of being balanced with the CORE races). After looking at the data and the results, I simply don't believe that is possible using the d20 game mechanics put forth.

Of all the things WotC did willy nilly ... designing races appears to be the biggest "crap-shoot" they ever did. It looks to me like they did "ball-parking" power more than anything else. I give the tip of my hat to the guy over on ENWorld who came up with a racial system (Someone who has the word "Krust" in his name). The work is top quality (and available for free, I think). But you do need to have very good math skills to follow and use it.

Upper_Krust and Ya, UK has done an amazing job with not only races, but the whole of epic. sadly, he's gone to the bad side and is all 4e now. though apparently he is going to be continuing his 3.5 works via other writers.

and I totally agree with NLF: Races are very, very difficult to balance as most of them(and monsters in general) are badly designed and many have their CR outta whack.

while i think a system akin to CC for races would rock hard, there are a few ways out their to custom create your own, from UK's CR Calculator(which should be free as NLF mentioned) to the niffty point buy system in the Advanced Players Guide from i believe Green Ronin.

Well, considering a lot of people would appreciate a Complete Races, is there a possibility for you to "choose" a balance set and put together the book from that?

For example, defining Elves, Humans and Dwarves as "within the balanced boundaries" and using that as the basis?

Perhaps I need to define a little bit more in lieu of Andreas' question. Because it very poignantly splits the topic into two (and a half) issues:

1. Can a system be designed where people can created their own sense of "CR zero" by choosing how many "Racial Points" a race can receive and then going from there?

1a. Is there an ability to designate which choices are balanced and which ones aren't?

2. Can there be a balanced way of organizing the various racial perks so that a consistant rule comes about.

The answer to #1 and #1a (which is where I see the heart of your question, Andreas) is an absolutely yes. Not only is it possible, but it is quite easy. Much like the current "Point Buy Stat" method, it is very easy to create a system. Actually, only is it possible, but it is complete. In my preliminary work, I've already done the framework for that. To hit on 1a more precisiely ... it isn't really a problem with balancing the options so much as it is justifying how those options have been already combined in existing races.

The answer to #2 is more difficult. The problem is because things like "feats" and "access to psionics/magic" are such broad categories. However, As I was tossing this idea over in my head I've come up with a new way of perhaps refining the results. So, before placing the hard-line rubber stamp of "no" on this one (as I did a few posts above) ... I'm going to go back and and give this a rubber stamp of "jury's gone back into consultation ... check back later."

Thanks to Alzrius for continuing to not let me be satisfied with the "no" answer.

Great to hear, NLF! People continue to ask about this book more than just about anything else we currently have in the works.