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it's when you start seeing class A 2/class B 1/ Class A 1/ Prestige Class A 2/Prestige Class B 1/Prestige Class C 1/etc that you really have a problem

I agree this indicates a problem, a fundamental design problem: the "straight-jacket effect". This is why I always found the multiclass penalty (and cross-class skill system) silly and why I like CC so much: not only does the system penalise you when you want to play something that is not "standard template", it also gimps you if you try to emulate your goal mixing relevant bits!

I'll add that IIRC, Pathfinder does not adress anything regarding this problem. (so that I'm not completely off-topic )

=A=

Asurya wrote:

I agree this indicates a problem, a fundamental design problem: the "straight-jacket effect". This is why I always found the multiclass penalty (and cross-class skill system) silly and why I like CC so much: not only does the system penalise you when you want to play something that is not "standard template", it also gimps you if you try to emulate your goal mixing relevant bits!

To pull you a bit more off-topic (yet at least orbiting the topic of design principles) ...

What you speak of will always be a problem in a game system whose designers choose a class mechanic. The reason is because the limit of possibilities in class design approach infinity as more supplements are produced. With more supplements the gamers using them see parts of the class design that would work better in their character design with elements of other classes. So they "shop around" to collect the elements they want ... essentially designing their own "base class" as they go.* Because paper and layout cost money, game designers cannot possibly ever hope to put all the workable ideas onto paper. So, the brunt of combining class abilities always falls onto the players.

In fact, the more creative a game system is - in reality the more multiclassing should be enouraged! If game designers are going to use the class mechanic to allow characters to be built, there shouldn't be a penalty for players wanting to use those tools to design the character they want. In this respect, the multiclassing penalty is really just game designer ego problem. It's saying "We think the game is best played in this form. If you think another form (one that diverges too much from our form) is better, I'll slap a penalty on you."

* With respect to this, I have always seen class builds like this one: "Class A 4/Class B 5/Class C 1/Prestige Class D 6/Prestige Class E 3/Prestige Class F 1" really as a way of saying "Class that the player really wants to play 20." As such, I freely let my players multiclass when I am forced to play in a game where classes are necessary. Unfortunately, even with this perspective there is still an element where the character that the player is playing is not really quite the character that they actually had in mind because of the game designer's principles of class design.

{And, forgive me for a near-rant on a topic near and dear to my heart. CC rules ... and ... hey Andreas, what's the status of True Control? Are you waiting for the Third Dawn release in the Ture20 system? Just curious.}

Given the changes in pathfinder, and my deep love of psionics. I thought this was worth joining and attempting to help.

First of all... lets go over the premise.

Psionics is a representation of something that is at the very core of the fantasy world... any fantasy world. The unknown. It's meant to be mysterious to those not accustomed to it. A psionic character is seen not as your stereotypical pillar of physical prowess or a master of the arcane arts. A psion is a master of his own mind. When you look upon a psion you look upon something more than a creature of mere being. You look upon a pillar of mental strength and sheer unbending willpower.

In 3.5 this came across as "Freak"... which I don't like. Psion's are not freaks, they are not mutations, they are not variations from the norm. They are simply those who found a hidden key. A key present in the mind of any sentient creature. The power of the mind. Sheer force of will so undeniably powerful that the world itself bends to its push.

If DS is going to put out a psionics handbook for pathfinder... that is the image I hope they will portray the psionic classes with. Towers of iron will who know ancient secrets that let them shape the world around them.

Now... given that. Let us go over what I see as the good points of the 3.5 system and the pathfinder system to date. Starting with 3.5.

XPH:
Power points: GOOD IDEA. I like the power point system over the spells per day system simply because the mind is a fluid construct. It is not bound by rules. The power point system not only gives the psion more flexibility that your average wizard (Its "real world" counterpart) but it fit with the idea that a psion would invest power in his spells differently than a wizard. The wizard's power comes from the fabric of magic... literally. The spells a wizard prepares are merely a means to wrinkle the fabric of magic so that when those wrinkles are released and magic returns to its natural state some effect happens in the real world. The wizard taps into an external power source. The Psion does not. The psion's power comes straight from his mind. His own mental energy. As such the psion is free to invest that energy in any way he sees fit. The power point and augmentation system gives the player an excellent way to express this fundamental difference.

Relation to magic: I like this idea. The two systems are similar but not the same. As such many psionic powers should mimic magic spells. But at the same time be just different enough to give it a new feel and flair.

Pathfinder:

There is a lot to look at here... but I'll continue to compare the wizard as the psion as a point of reference.

In pathfinder the wizard's school became a much more prominent feature of who he is. A conjurer is drastically different from an enchanter or a necromancer. Its not just a way to get a few extra spells and toss out those schools you don't like.

This is something I think should be included in DS's implementation of pathfinder psionics. A shaper should be fundamentally different from a telepath who is fundamentally different from a seer.

The disciplines should grant abilities that mesh with the powers contained within their subset of psionics. Shapers should get abilities that increase the power of their constructs and the strength and longevity of the crystal and items they create. Telepaths should, though the study of their discipline, gain a means to penetrate the defenses of those they would manipulate allowing them to do so quicker, with less damage to the subject (Or more if its a bad guy... why let him come back to sanity eh?) and with less exertion on their part. And a seer's premonitions should become clearer and more accurate as she gains understanding of the abilities.

The powers themselves need an overhaul as well to fit with the new ways that Pathfinder does some things... (Polymorph for example)

Pathfinder managed to give players a reason NOT to multiclass and I think this should stay. Give the psion, wilder, soulknife and Psychic warrior a reason to stick to the path. Give them enough customization to make them meaningful and not just a stepping stone to "What I really want to play". (IE make it possible for a soulknife to become a soulbow without having to take a PRC for it. Make the ectopic adept class something that any shaper can aspire to without a PRC...ectectect)

For now...that's my two cents...

I like the way you define things Eradarus (and welcome to these boards).
Now for the specifics:

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Polymorph for example

well, DSP already patched the Polymorph cheese issue: the formbound system with the Assume X powers which works great...

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Pathfinder managed to give players a reason NOT to multiclass and I think this should stay.

[EDIT: remove obscure cultural reference] so they reward you when you stay single-classed instead of (on top of?) slapping you when you multiclass? It's certainly a better way to achieve the goal,[/EDIT] but it does not change that the goal is bad (see NLF post just above).

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IE make it possible for a soulknife to become a soulbow without having to take a PRC for it. Make the ectopic adept class something that any shaper can aspire to without a PRC

I hear what you say here, it reminds me of the Ultimate classes of Szatany for those familiar with the Classes & PrCs WotC board back in the 3.5 days. It's still not the customisation level of a CC approach, but definitely a step in the right direction.

=A=

Asurya wrote:

Quote:: it's when you start seeing class A 2/class B 1/ Class A 1/ Prestige Class A 2/Prestige Class B 1/Prestige Class C 1/etc that you really have a problem I agree this indicates a problem, a fundamental design problem: the "straight-jacket effect". This is why I always found the multiclass penalty (and cross-class skill system) silly and why I like CC so much: not only does the system penalise you when you want to play something that is not "standard template", it also gimps you if you try to emulate your goal mixing relevant bits! I'll add that IIRC, Pathfinder does not adress anything regarding this problem. (so that I'm not completely off-topic ) =A=

to be fair, i don't think i've often seen someone make a series of classes like that just to make the character they want to roleplay, so much as they tend to do it to cherrypick the abilities that let them 'win' faster, better, etc.

but yes, if it's just being done because the classes don't fill some basic function of what they want to do, that would be a problem with the system itself, in that it doesn't offer enough options.

first off, welcome Eradarus.
second, I picked up Pathfinder last night, and have only just opened up the PDF. I think I'm in love with the system already... I looked at the fighter and thought, 'that actually looks like something I would like to play!' I think that the Psychic Warrior should look somnething like that. perhaps give him a few options like soulknife path, master of mantras path, animal inside path, war machine path (think ectoplasmic armored giant man running at you), and a few others like that. make each path provide a list of bonus feats at certain levels, special abilities unique to your path, a desirable 11th level ability, and finally a powerful 20th level ascendancy-esqe ability.
I'll be able to post something more meaningful after I read into the PDF some more.

There seem to be two camps (between here, ENWorld, and Paizo) when it comes to the Soulknife - keep it separate, make it a psywar path. Given that, neither options is going to please everyone... so to both sides - please accept that we have to pick one over the other (unless we figure out a way to do both...) and don't get too upset and trust that we'll try to make it as fun as possible either way!

Hmm, Jeremy, couldn't you easily do both? keep the Soulknife seperate, and alter it as you(we) see fit to get it in line with PF and then for the Psywar camp, create a path wherein the Psy War gains some of the Mindblade feats and then perhaps some lesser versions of SK abilities.

the key here is to make sure that if you go this route, that the SK Psywar is a viable option, but doesn't out SK the SK. perhaps if you choose this, maybe the Mindblade feats need to undergo a revision? if you feel such is necessary, then perhaps the SK path for the Psywar could be an extra option in a later book. I'm sure as long as you promise to make it at some point everybody will be happy.

Well, one way to do it would be to let the Soulknife's Mindblade enhance itself, while the Mindblade Feats only give you "manifesting weapon options" so to speak. So a PsyWar can manifest a Mindblade, but regardless of level or number of feats, it must be enhanced "normally" via magic/psionic item creation feats?

Fact is, we could even make the two classes share the same "Mindblade" feats, only giving non-Soulknives access to a Mindblade via a "Form Mindblade" feat. Indeed, this might actually be a way to merge both concepts...

about Soulknife and giving them options (as a class that is, not giving an option to another class to have Soulknife bits), I have a copy of the Ultimate Soulknife that Szatany posted some years ago on WotC forums, in which he developped path.
I don't know if it's ok to repost it here though...

A_a wrote:

Fact is, we could even make the two classes share the same "Mindblade" feats, only giving non-Soulknives access to a Mindblade via a "Form Mindblade" feat. Indeed, this might actually be a way to merge both concepts...

is this not the spirit of the "using a Soulknife class with this system" section of Mind blade feat book?
So anyone can take feats if they want a little flavor, but someone devoting his career to it gets more out of it (be it more feats than could have been normally selected, or little side effects unavailable to the feats-picking ones)

Jaid wrote:

to be fair, i don't think i've often seen someone make a series of classes like that just to make the character they want to roleplay, so much as they tend to do it to cherrypick the abilities that let them 'win' faster, better, etc.

I know a guy who would do that, so I understand what you are saying. Remember though that Clr20 or Drd20 are pretty cheesy when you know what you're doing, often more than "advanced" (A1/B2/C1/D3) builds.

Jaid wrote:

but yes, if it's just being done because the classes don't fill some basic function of what they want to do, that would be a problem with the system itself, in that it doesn't offer enough options.

I don't agree, like NLF said above, it's more a combination problem than anything. To cover all the bases, one would need to think of all possible ability combination (read: impossible).

A classless system will always be better because it give pricing for every existing ability and doesn't care about combination: that's the player's job. Note that "better" does not mean more powerful, just more accommodating for "weird" character concepts.
Just one example: guys on WotC psionic boards posited that one could emulate the shinobis on the Naruto show using just psionic powers and abilities. It works but the catch is you need 18+ builds to emulate a guy still in his infancy (i.e. far form his potential). This does not seems right to me.

Such a system definitely can name broken if a motivated player tries to pile the most synergistic abilities, but that's a problem with the player, not the system (as he would have reached a similar result using "std" optimisation under a class system).

=A=

sorry to distract from the soulknife debate (see end of this post), but I think we're missing something small but imortant in this transission/ brainstorming: Autohypnosis, Psicraft, and Use Psionic Device. Autohypnosis wouldn't likely change much, but do we really want the other two to simply be carried over, or would it be better to meld them with their counterparts (Supernaturalcraft and Use Supernatural Device)? I believe that having excess skills can take away from a system (but can sometimes add to it).
also, back to the soulknife debate, I say make it into paths/ talents/ feats (perhaps having a Kensai path), but instead have a Soul Bastion main class (seriously, one of my favorite classes of all time).

The discussion about skills has been lifted on ENWorld and Paizo and our preliminary idea is to merge Use Psionic Device with Use Magic Device and make Knowledge Psionics part of Arcana and Psicraft part of Spellcraft. We are considering keeping the Knowledge: Psionics part, but if Spellcraft can hold information about both divine and arcane powers, then why not psionic?

Autohypnosis though will most assuredly be retained, especially since they removed Concentration. We'll fold in Psionic Focus into this skill, in addition to the existing uses.

It's really nice to hear that you like the Soul Bastion class. We're probably not going to revise the class as much as that, although we're probably going to include it in our expansion book for PF.

Actually, I was having the thought earlier to possibly make the soulknife and soul bastion one class for a PF version. That would give quite a few more options to build paths along, and give more mix and match freedom if people want it. Certain abilities may need to go the way of the dodo bird for balance reasons if combined like that, but the thought of trying to make a workable model like that did cross my mind.

That said, so did numerous other ideas (I am the soulknife guy), so feel free to tell me I'm crazy. Just don't expect me to listen to you on that, though I'm more than open to ideas (Pathfinder and 3.5, though 3.5 should be PMed).

Maverick - are you interested in co-designing the Soulknife for Pathfinder with us then? We won't be able to offer loads of money, but I think we can come to terms!

I got bored yesterday so I looked at the pathfinder wizard and thought of some abilities for the disciplines. Just a quick and dirty example of how I personally think they should go.

Metacreativity:
Shaper's will(SU): At first level the shaper's constructs gain minor enhancements due to the shapers greater understanding of the formulae that govern an astral construct's creation. At first level the shaper's constructs gain bonus Temporary HP equal to the shapers' psion level that last for the duration of the astral construct.
Ectoplasmic Bolt(SU): At 1st level a shaper gains the ability to summon up bolts of ectoplasm from the astral medium and hurl them at his enemies as a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 feet. These bolts deal 1d6 damage plus 1 damage for every two levels the shaper possesses. This damage is slashing damage and is affected by Damage Reduction as normal non-magical damage. The Shaper may use this ability 3 times per day +1 time for each point of intelligence bonus.
Shaper's Armor(SU): At 5th level the shaper's understanding of ectoplasm increases, allowing him to better armor his constructions. The Natural Armor bonus of any construct created by the shaper increases by +3. At 19th level this bonus increases to +6.
Puppetmaster(SU): At 10th level the shaper gains the knowledge needed to make nearly permanent constructions, binding them to the plane they are created on. Once per day the shaper may manifest an astral construct with a duration of 24 hours. This process must be done in a calm quiet place free of distractions and requires one hour of meditation. If this construct is destroyed or another is manifest the newer construct does not gain a longer duration and the shaper must wait till after his next period of rest to create another. The level of this construct must be one level lower than the maximum level of construct the shaper is able to manifest. Maintaining this construct drains the psion's reserves. Two hours after the construct is created and every two hours after that the construct consumes one of the Shaper's power points. The construct disapates when the shaper enters sleep or a meditative trance, or whenever the shaper loses consciousness or becomes unable to maintain his connection to the construct.

Telepathy:
Mindwhispers(SU): At first level a telepath becomes aware of the metaphysical weight of sentient creatures near him. At first these sensations are vague but over time they grow more accute, allowing the telepath many special abilities. At 1st level the Telepath hears merely whispers coming from the minds of thinking creatures, whisps of cognizance that alert him to the general mood of those around him and whisps of discordant mental energy that denotes lies and falsehoods. The Telepath gains a +3 bonus to sense motive checks +1 for every two levels of telepath past the first. At 3rd level the telepath becomes able to form cognitive links with those around him. He gains the ability to manifest mindlink as a psi-like ability at will. At 10th level the mindwhispers become clear and the telepath can detect the surface thoughs of those around him. He can manifest Read Thoughts at will and this power does not require concentration.
Penetrating Thoughts(SU): At 5th level the telepath becomes able to sense the mental defenses of those around him, allowing him a better picture of opponent's minds. This knowledge allows him to better penetrate these defenses. All telepathy powers manifest by the telepath have their save DCs increased by 2, this bonus stacks with other bonuses granted by feats or other class features.
Mind Rend(SU): Though extensive study and proximity to the minds of others the telepath becomes able to disrupt the minds of those around him. At 7th level the telepath's telepathy discipline powers gain an extra augmentation option. For every 2 powerpoints the telepath augments the power with its victims take 1d10 damage. In addition, for every 2d10 damage dealt the Telepath gains a +2 competence bonus to checks made to penetrate spell or power resistance.

This is what I think the powers granted by the disciplines should be like. Something that relates to the very core of what that type of psion does. The telepath, once fully realized can sense the minds of almost anyone near him while the shaper's understanding of the astral medium and his constructs makes any construct he creates a powerhouse. (And the day long construct really does make the shaper something more than a simple summoner... and actually makes psionic repair damage useful)

Notice how they don't move past 10th level? I think that you shouldn't have to wait till 20th level to get the good stuff. Most campaigns never go into epic levels. As such you almost never get a chance to use the really fun and useful powers at the bottom of the lists. As such these lists should top out at 10th or even 15th level.

Again just a general feel for how I personally think it should go...

here's another soulknife idea: lets start by taking the varient soulknife from untapped potential (this will be our baseline): and have the class split into the following paths: Duel Blades, Throwing Blades/mindblade archer, Cleaving Blade, Soul Bastion. the path would begin at level 1, and that would have a large bearing on how things will look by level 20.

as a side note, has pathfinder 'fixed' epic levels? I like the ability to increase in level infinitely, but find that there is little balance left after a certain point.

Angellis_ater wrote:

Maverick - are you interested in co-designing the Soulknife for Pathfinder with us then? We won't be able to offer loads of money, but I think we can come to terms!

Yes, yes I am. Actually, I'd be interested in co-designing period, but that's another discussion entirely, and I am a little biased towards soulknife material at the moment. And I can't say I much care about the money. I miss being involved in the game, and I have a load of fun doing design work. At this point in time, it's really more of a 'This is just who I am and what I love to do' kind of things.

@ tev - I think that instead of making such distinct paths, they should have a few things that all soulknives get, and then a nice list of 'powers' to choose from, like the barbarian. Like I have this picture of a soulknife wielding a greatsword like weapon, cutting through one guy and into the next, then stepping forward and launching a pair of mind daggers into a guy 15 feet away, all in one steady movement. Obviously, said guy would have some levels, and have put some feats to good use, but I hope you can see where I'm going. The variants are all well-and-good in a 3.5 setup, but I think a PF version definitely has more room for combining combat styles. Don't get me wrong, I think there should be enough 'Cleaving Blade' abilities to have you soulknife ridiculously focused on just that if you want, but I don't think a Cleaving Blade path, a Dual Blade path, etc. are the best ways to go. (Hell, I'd want to combine a cleaving blade path with a bastion path, and if you're splitting your power between them, I think balance is possible in such a setup.)

My current idea for the Soulknife (which seems to get the most attention, interestingly enough) is to define it according to "weapon styles" ie two-weapons, two-handed weapon or weapon+shield.

For the record A_A, that means you plan on keeping the SK as a class, right?

Indeed it does mean that we are planning on keeping the Soulknife - removing it completely would've meant breaking with backwards compatibility, which we don't want to do.