Maverick, I like your idea, and can't wait to see what that looks like when all is said and done! one important question though: skills! will they be roughly like the skill list from XPH or like UP?

good now then, as far as suggestions on what to do with the class: first off, i love the idea of a Soulknife being able to create some form of armor as well as a weapon. Perhaps what we could do is make it so a Soulknife picks either offense or defense at say 3rd level, and can then pick from among several choices per whatever levels.

What i'd like to see is the SK getting both a Mindblade and Soularmor, no matter his choice, but then the one he picks is much better. So if he picks offense, he can then have options for just the single blade, dual weild, cleave, etc. and if he picks armor, you can go mobility/light, tank/heavy, etc. But the other ability still progresses, but just at the normal, non special rate.

The first question we need to ask ourselves is, "Outside of mechanics, what does a soulknife look like?" As in, how are we envisioning it in terms of fluff? Is it a frontline warrior? A nimble, lightly-armored duelist? Someone who can make pretty much any weapon out of his psychic power?

Right now, the soulknife doesn't really know what it's trying to do. He has a decent amount of skill points and three-quarters BAB, indicating that he's a skill monkey lite. However, his defining class feature gives him access to a variety of close-quarters powers, and he has a d10 HD, indicating that he's supposed to be focused on combat. The only problem is that the existing soulknife is neither of these things.

Thus, we need to know what we want it to do.

Once we have this down, we can start writing up mechanics for the class. So let's hear those ideas!

As a side note, I think that we can work out a compromise between those who want the soulknife as a feat chain and those who want the soulknife as a base class. Instead of being strictly one or the other, we can have a feat that grants a character a mindblade. It's useful and can be enchanted like a normal mindblade, but that's about it--no ranged attacks with it or shaping it or anything of that nature. The soulknife, though, is a base class that automatically gains the feat, and it gains unique abilities on top of just having a mind blade.

What do you think of that?

B.T. wrote:

Instead of being strictly one or the other, we can have a feat that grants a character a mindblade. It's useful and can be enchanted like a normal mindblade, but that's about it--no ranged attacks with it or shaping it or anything of that nature. The soulknife, though, is a base class that automatically gains the feat, and it gains unique abilities on top of just having a mind blade.

that's pretty much what I offered several posts ago (great minds think alike!)

I wrote:

is this not the spirit of the "using a Soulknife class with this system" section of Mind blade feat book? So anyone can take feats if they want a little flavor, but someone devoting his career to it gets more out of it (be it more feats than could have been normally selected, or little side effects unavailable to the feats-picking ones)

A quick aside: how would such a system be priced under CC?
I'm asking because I fear simply purchasing feats would prove too expensive for someone trying to be a "pure" soulknife (and still wanting customisation he would have had under a class system).


About how to handle the "path" aspect of the Soulknife, the Marksman's Signature style may be the way to go. So that the system accommodates players who want to dabble in several aspects as well as players who want a specialist (limited but better in his particular field). Note that I'm not saying we should copy the Marksman's template (7th, 11th, 15th, 19th), just how he chooses between furthering a path he already know, or learn a new one.

=A=

as a side note, we should try to avoid dead levels like the plague. I hate dead levels. if they get filled with things do non-combat stuff, that would be great.
I also think that we need to find a way to make the psychic warrior feel unique; whenever I look at the Psychic Warrior, I see a psychic fighter. In Pathfinder, the fighter gains abilities that make them better with armor and certain weapon groups, along with gaining all the fighter bunos feats we're used to. the Psychic Warrior should gain something that makes it unique, but as to what I'm unsure.

a thought on psions (and the idea has already been thrown out there I'm sure), could have paths based on there chosen devotion. the path could provide a minor psionic power as a psi-like ability usable a number of times a day equal to their Psion level + the Int Modifier. what powers are minor enough to count like this? detect psionics and far hand come to mind. you see where that is going. what do you think?

Check a page back. I think that each discipline should get its own set of abilities much like those of wizard specialist schools... as they are more or less the same thing.

Helps keep the power of the psion balanced with that of the wizard, as they are mirror images of each other.

tevolria wrote:

a thought on psions (and the idea has already been thrown out there I'm sure), could have paths based on there chosen devotion. the path could provide a minor psionic power as a psi-like ability usable a number of times a day equal to their Psion level + the Int Modifier. what powers are minor enough to count like this? detect psionics and far hand come to mind. you see where that is going. what do you think?

Devotion-based powers similar to the Wizard School-based powers is something Andreas and I are definitely looking into - more ideas of what each discipline could be are always welcome!

If that is the case... here is what I though for the kinetisist!

I wanted to get the class away from the whole "I blow you up with [insert energy type here] and more into actual kinetics... you know. The energy of motion. As such I came up with the following.

Psychokinetics:
Push(SU): All Kinetisist are telekinetic first. At 1st level a Kinetisist can create simple short lived bursts of kinetic energy allowing him to move objects with force of will alone. This power allows the Kinetisist to do several things. It can be used as a simple "Telekinetic punch" that deals 1d4 bludegoning damage +1 per two levels of psion past the first. It can also be used to shove an object weighing 5 pounds per level up to 5 feet per level. Lastly it can be used to quickly open or close an unlocked untrapped door from a distance of up to 30 feet, this ability does not work on unusually heavy doors like Iron or stone. The three uses of this ability can be used a number of times per day total equal to 3+int mod.
Elemental Bolt(SU): At 2nd level the Kinetisist discovers a faster means of access to the elemental planes. This allows him to summon up bolts of pure energy and fling them at his foes. These bolts deal 1d6 damage +1 damage for every 2 levels of psion up to a range of 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ability can be used 3 times per day +1 use per point of int mod. The Kinetisist chooses what type of energy when the bolt is made. The type of energy chosen grants special abilities to the bolt as listed.
Fire: A bolt of fire that strikes the target forces that subject to make a DC13 reflex save or catch fire. Just as a flask of alchemist fire.
Cold: A bolt of cold forces the subject to make a DC13 Fort save or subtract 5 feet from its movement speed for a number of rounds equal to the psion's int mod.
Acid: A bolt of acid that strikes its target deals damage equal to the static bonus on the dice roll to the target each round for a number of rounds equal to the psion's int mod. A DC15 fort save negates this damage for that round only.
Lightning: A bolt of lightning that strikes its target forces the subject to make a DC14 fort save or take a -2 penalty to its dexterity for a number of rounds equal to the psion's int mod.
Kinetic grapple(SU): Using the power of his mind a Kinetisist of at leats 5th level can grapple with others psychicly. This effect works exactly like a normal grapple save that it happens at up to 30 feet. The force of will required to preform this action is extreme. If the opponent wins a grapple check the psion can be pinned, forcing him to the ground or even damaged by the opponent lashing out against his kinetic field. Any damage dealt to the psion in this manner is converted from physical slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage into non typed magic damage. This damage is then reduced by an ammount equal to the psion's constitution modifier. That activity is mentally demanding and requires all of the psion's concentration to maintain, preventing him from manifesting powers or moving. The Psion adds his intelligence mod to his CMB for the purpose of this grapple as well as 1/2 his psion level as a competence bonus. He also adds his intelligence mod to his CMD for the duration of the grapple. A psion can use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his psion level. This ability does not provoke attacks of oppotunity.
Hurl(SU): At 10th level the Kineticists powers grow to the point where he can hurl objects with the force of will alone. The Psion may, as a full round action, pick up and hurl an object at an enemy with a burst of kinetic energy. Objects deal 1d6 points of damage for every 10 pounds of weight. The Kinetisist can pick up and throw an object weighing 10 pounds for each level in psion he has. With heavier objects taking more of his total weight. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+intmod

I've got concepts for what each discipline should get and now you have seen half of them... but then again my idea of what a discipline is can vary drastically from what others think a psion is...

Eradarus wrote:

Push(SU): All Kinetisist are telekinetic first. At 1st level a Kinetisist can create simple short lived bursts of kinetic energy allowing him to move objects with force of will alone. This power allows the Kinetisist to do several things. It can be used as a simple "Telekinetic punch" that deals 1d4 bludegoning damage +1 per two levels of psion past the first. It can also be used to shove an object weighing 5 pounds per level up to 5 feet per level. Lastly it can be used to quickly open or close an unlocked untrapped door from a distance of up to 30 feet, this ability does not work on unusually heavy doors like Iron or stone. The three uses of this ability can be used a number of times per day total equal to 3+int mod.

(color mine)
I can see why you put this here, but this does not work fluff-wise. Indicating a player he can't open a locked (or very heavy) door from a distance make perfect sense; but why does a trap prevent a door from opening?
Oh, and trying to plug this potential "step on the Rogue's toe" thingy, you created a trap detector...

In fact I think the solution is to let it work on trapped doors, because it's a narrow scope.
Besides, triggering a trap from a distance is not always a good choice, and it's not as if you couldn't put traps elsewhere anyway...

=A=

This is true.

I have to say I love all of these ideas and they are being submerged into our conceptual work at this stage! Thanks for sharing, thanks for commenting and thanks for being awesome!

Thanks for being open.

I've always hated that Psionics was view as a "Twink's paradise" and that so many DMs disallowed them simply because of fear of unbalancing their games.

The only way we are going to make this stigma go away is to build a psionics handbook that is truly balanced and that gives content that can be brought into almost any game without fear or unbalancing or throwing the world its in off kilter.

After another afternoon of boredom I came up with yet another discipline set.

Behold: Psychoportation!

Psychoportation:
Hop(SU): At 1st level the Nomad's powers of movement increase, granting a +5 bonus to base land speed. This bonus increases to +10 at 5th level, +15 at 10th, +20 at 15th and +25 at 20th Level.
Jump(SU): At 6th level the Nomad gains the ability to teleport short distances. A Nomad may teleport as a move action instead of a normal movement action. This ability does not allow the Nomad to pass though barriers but does allow him to move without passing though the interveining space, thus allowing him to cross chasms and other non pysical barriers to his movement.
Leap(SU): At 10th level the Nomad gains a Fly speed equal to his land speed bonus from Hop as well as a +5 bonus to fly checks. At 15th level this speed increases to match his total land speed and the bonus to fly checks increases to +10. The psion also gains the ability to float over the ground at will, moving as if standing on it without actually touching it. This allows the psion to ignore difficult terrain and to not trigger traps based on touching the ground.

Nomads were always masters of movement. I thought these abilities added to that nicely. Even incorporating the hover of a elocator.

As the nomad gains levels he becomes more and more able to move freely around his world, eventually being able to teleport great distances and fly allowing him to put himself in the best position to aid his party.

if we are goin to make this the PFXPH its important to follow the patterns laid out therein. Ex the Wizard and Sorc n perhaps even the Cleric all gain a minor combat ability at 1st level, regardless of School, Domain, etc. While one may not like givin each Discipline such a power the idea is to allow casters an option beyond a crappy ranged attack with a weapon when they're out of spells/PPs for the day.

I understand the rational LMS, but this makes me sad nonetheless: not everything is about damage (or even combat for that matter).

Quote::

The only way we are going to make this stigma go away is to build a psionics handbook that is truly balanced and that gives content that can be brought into almost any game without fear or unbalancing or throwing the world its in off kilter.

well, one could argue XPH is pretty darn well balanced in the first place (and DSP products are too), and that only crappy older versions (I've been told, never read other psi rules than 3.5) made a lingering bad face to the system.
So, to me, the only way we are going to make this stigma go away is educating players and GMs alike.

Irony aside, I really mean it: producing a well-rounded book will not suffice to change the minds of so many dead-set "OMG psionic is sooooo br0k3n!1!eleven". (it would be awesome, but I sincerely doubt it)

=A=

Asurya, i am not saying every single Discipline power be combat related, just the one gained at first level, in order to follow the pattern of Pathfinder. other abilities, gained at higher levels, can indeed be things like movement increases, funky social esque powers, etc.

The players casters(i would guess Psions fell in this group as well) had a big problem when they couldn't do anything useful in combat if they ran out of spells, or didn't have any combat spells perpared/known. If you make a totally non-combat psion, and pick only interaction and perhaps a buff power or two, how much use will he be once he has to enter combat and can only attempt to hit somebody with a bow or staff?? and far more importantly where is the FUN in that??.

PF did went ahead and attempted to make ALL classes fun, whether they added in new, cool abilities, lessened the strength of others or whatever it took to try and ensure all players, regardless of class n make had fun. not giving the Psion a level 1, 3+Int Mod per day combat power flies totally in the face of that goal, and to say otherwise is to not really grasp what PF is all about. Believe me, i've been following it since Alpha, took part in a Beta playtest and scoured the forums, so i know what i'm talking about: Paizo and Pathfinder really did try to make sure everybody at the table has fun.

Eradarus, I like your discipline path ideas, but, why are you stopping at 10th level? more is to come I assume (yes, I assume a lot of things).

I thought that having to wait till 20th (Which no matter how you look at it. Most characters don't get to 20th level before the end of a campaign) was a waste of good abilities. I'm trying to figure things out for 20th that are nice. But I wanted the CORE of the paths to be topped out at 10th or 15th level and be attainable in most games.

Plus, it emphasize the class10/PrRC10 path, which is perfectly fine from an official perspective.

=A=

We will most likely keep some form of combat-related ability at 1st level, based upon the conceptual idea that "A character should have something more useful than hitting someone with a staff to do in each round". However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it will all be OFFENSIVE combat powers.