I must first say that when I heard Dreamscarred was doing psionics for Pathfinder I was thrilled. While I am new to Pathfinder I am not new to Dreamscarred Press and know your material is always good.

I personally like most of the things from 3.5 already, augmentation, power points, and similar things should be kept. I also agree that class abilities for every devotion would be good, though I confess I don't have many suggestions for them at this time.

Though one suggestion I do have is to combine some of the powers from the SRD into one. For example psionic teleport and greater psionic teleport should be changed into one power. Same with mind switch and true mind switch, and similar powers. These were probably kept separate originally so non-specialists couldn't get true mind switch, greater metamorphosis, or other ninth level powers, but it seems there might be a generalist psion added from what I've read on the forms so it shouldn't matter.

There was a psionics powers revision done on the wizards forums a while ago (I will try to find it later) that basically did this exact thing. It was a bit complicated because some powers had almost too many augmentations, but I thought it was still good. I also liked that it made the power DCs based on number of power points spent for all power, not just certain ones that specifically said the DCs scaled. That and 0 level talents made it very good.

Quick tip: In the Paizo-Pathfinder-General Discussion forum in the Paizo message boards the Wayfinder #2 has been announced! They are offering free advertising to third party producers of pathfinder products! May be a great place to spread word of your playtest! (As well as add legitimacy to it. You know, mabye get Paizo on board...)

Great discussion going on here. Love it. Keep at it, folks.

If I may, I'd like to submit a couple of different ideas for consideration that I posted on the Paizo board earlier (trimmed down a bit).

To begin with, I submit that if we broaden the scope of psionics from spell-like effects (e.g., mind reading and fireballs), there's a strong place for psionic races, classes and powers that deviate significantly from the classic arcane-blaster model. This keeps coming back to me as I read all of these posts: one of the key things that makes psionic characters great in a game is their “hidden” power(s). They manifest rarely, but they do … it’s memorable.

For example, a character who emulates a different class (say, a crafty Wilder) is effectively no different in-game from any other "normal" build up until the point where they use their hidden psionic "edge" to pull off something amazing.

For example, a psionicist finds herself outclasses in a duel, so he swift-manifests offensive prescience and becomes impossibly fast. The DM doesn’t explain how the psionic character pulled off the stunt until their character arc reaches the big reveal.

Similarly, a psionicist in a brawl throws back all her enemies with a ring of telekenetic force. It doesn’t look like any spell that anyone’s seen before, but the DM winks and says that “all will be revealed later.” Tension builds. Drama happens.

These can be exciting and dramatic tools for giving your players a way to overcome their foes in-game in a flavor-rich manner. You could accomplish much the same with spells, SLAs or SNAs, but (I submit) the psionic way is more exciting. If you base your character on their spells or powers as their primary fighting capability, they'll always favor that method (i.e., a wizard can shoot you with a crossbow, but will plan to attack with spells, wands and scrolls whenever possible).

If, on the other hand, the characters have a fair ability play through most battles like a fighter, cleric or rogue and then use psionics to opportunistically seize victory, I think that makes (can make) the game much more exciting. It adds mystery, surprise and RP potential to nearly any desperate encounter.

[Aside: I talked up the Morphean book on the original of this post because (a) I adore it, and (b) I think that it’s a really exciting way to tap into the heart of the psionic power source (mind powers, dreams etc.) and be effective in a party without ever stepping in to the arcane or divine spellcasters' territory. Brilliant.]

The second point I'd like to explore is the commonly-accepted idea of psionic talent and energy lurking hidden in the general population (regardless of your campaign world). Anywhere but Athas, this trope gives the DM with a wonderful story booster. Giving the players a sound in-game reason to keep their psionic power(s) low key makes those powers all the more memorable and exciting when they do finally come on stage.

I contend that a conventional basic class character would have had to work three times as hard to get the same dramatic effect on the party as a craft psion who masks their power until the right dramatic moment. A little psionics can serve as a wonderfully powerful and rich highlight -- when applied sparingly.

I don’t know if the PFRPG guys are still reading their thread. If DSP is going to take on this challenge, then I’ll tell you what I told them: please take these ideas into consideration:

1. Don't restrict your application of psionics exclusively to the arcane-blaster role in the party; 


(a) think about how to add more psionic "boost" potential to conventional characters, and also 


(b) think about how to make it possible for mostly-psionic characters to function in-game without having to rely mostly or entirely on their psionics to be effective

2. Dig deep into the story potential of the power source itself to give us exotic, enticing character paths and augments that we can use to enhance characters arcs inside otherwise conventional adventures.
Thanks for listening.

From what I've read in the previous four pages of posts, y'all are decisively engaged on this project. I'm thrilled. Best of fortune in bringing it into being.

Wow. Wonderful post, Myrokhad!

As a DM I especially loved your advice on having villians with "surprising and esoteric" abilities.

Great read!

Myrokhad - I don't think any of the design team intends to focus on the "blaster" archetype for everything psionics.

Even 3.5 didn't do this. I've played with very competent shapers and telepaths who rarely, if ever, resorted to "blasting".

The great thing about manifesting powers, especially when using something like High Psionics: Power Sources, is the flavor of the manifesting can be super mutable. Now, it's hard to hide this to the characters - after all, most table-top games, the players say what they're doing out loud - but if the descriptive element is something like "The goon freezes in his tracks as blood trickles from his nose, eyes, and ears, groaning as he falls to the floor" - that can all be mind thrust, but how do you "hide" that without the players and DMs being secretive?

I get what you're saying, but mechanically, it'd be hard to do in a turn-based, open system like table top RPG.

That being said, we have no plans for all psionic characters to focus on being "blasters".

Quite the post there Myrokhad, and I like your ideas. However, I think the point of being a psion or wilder is just that: Your are PSIONIC. Just like the wizard's first plan is to go with spells, wands, & scrolls, a psion's should be to go with powers, dorjes, and power stones. (Not necessarily of the blasting nature, mind you.)

Don't get me a wrong, a 'psionic' class that uses psionics more as a buffer than a pure ability is a fine idea (and could probably be done well with the PsyWar given a better power list). But in D&D, the point of being a character who revolves around a power source of some sort is to use & abuse that power source.

The things you're discussing actually sound like they'd be better off as feats for a normal character with a touch of psionics (say, a half-giant fighter who has learned to force his psionic energy out to buy himself room in a tough fight). Again, it would probably be a fun class, but I don't think that's what most psionic classes are or should be.

And making those kind of changes would probably be a bit too severe for the current project (though that's not my final say). Remember, for the most part, this is just updating the EPH to work with PF. Things that would be huge, sweeping new changes are probably not in for the most part.

Thank you! Glad to be of service.

Just to put my cards on the table, please be aware that I treat my game like a shared story more than a war game. At the start of a campaign, I insist that the players write background that (a) allows me to link the characters together and (b) gives me "hooks" for no less than two character arcs each that will be woven into the story parallel to the main plot. If I can touch on at least one PC's character story arc per gaming session, I'm on track, and every player feels special -- the story that came from their character design is as important as the published adventure.

This is why I'm so fond of psionics as a DM. The psionics ideas and rules allow me to add exotic elements into an otherwise conventional story without tipping my hand to the players.

For example, while running Paizo's Second Darkness AP this year, one of my players submitted a Vudran monk who was exiled from his homeland (thus explaining his appearance in the town, and reason to accept the job I gave him). As his monk levels progressed, the player expressed a desire for his "family heirloom robes" to have some plot significance. I decided that the character had earned the Hidden Talent feat (unknowingly), and could manifest the power inertial armor after "meditating" (a DC20 concentration check). The player will find out towards the end of the story that he had a well-spring of "ki energy" within him that is greater than that of his kin; at the moment, he's thrilled that I found a way to incorporate his backstory into the plot. He feels honored, and is committed to finishing the story.

Maybe I'm biased, but I think that psionics lets me do things like this better and more elegantly than "DM fiat" power.

Cheers.

Oh, I entirely agree with you, and love games where DMs will at least accept bios and run with them like that. However, the rules are set up & balanced as a war game, for the most part, and so that is generally where the starting point has to be.

ChrisGunter wrote:

Quick tip: In the Paizo-Pathfinder-General Discussion forum in the Paizo message boards the Wayfinder #2 has been announced! They are offering free advertising to third party producers of pathfinder products! May be a great place to spread word of your playtest! (As well as add legitimacy to it. You know, mabye get Paizo on board...)

By the way, Chris, I missed this post initially, but have contacted Lilith and we'll be in Wayfinder #2.

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

By the way, Chris, I missed this post initially, but have contacted Lilith and we'll be in Wayfinder #2.

Excellent!

(Insert evil grin and dancing fingers here) It's all happening according to plan.... Mwa HA HA HA HA HA Ha Ha ha!

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

Myrokhad - I don't think any of the design team intends to focus on the "blaster" archetype for everything psionics.

My apologies if I insinuated anything negative, sir. That wasn't my intent.

I was hoping to convey a general sense that I've been reading on the subject across multiple forums, not to speak for the design team proper.

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

The great thing about manifesting powers ... is the flavor of the manifesting can be super mutable.

I concur. That's one of the great strengths of the source, providing your DM has the narrative skills to bring it to life. I've been fortunate to have some excellent examples of this.

Jeremy.Smith wrote:

Now, it's hard to hide this to the characters - after all, most table-top games, the players say what they're doing out loud ... but how do you "hide" that without the players and DMs being secretive?

It can become difficult, I agree. Sometimes, the DM has to be prepared ahead of time to describe something without necessarily explaining exactly what happens.

As an example, I ran a game a few years back where one player wanted to be a spy. He played a Yuan-Ti passing himself as human, and took ninja levels while pretending to be a bard. Contrived, sure. But he played the "assumed role" to the hilt. Every time he used a spell-like ability or ki power, the player took the time to fake a bardic music check, and I made a secret sense motive check for any other character that had the motive and opportunity to notice that something was amiss. Eventually, two of the other characters begin to suspect something, even though only one of the players realized that something was weird -- but they never discovered what, exactly.

This is a contrivance, and it suits adventures where some, most or all of the characters have secrets to keep. I tend to do variations on this for many psionic characters. This style of cooperative play between DM and player takes work, but tends to be worth it for the big story payoff down the road. At least, that's my opinion. YMMV.

Again, my apologies for suggesting anything less than sterling professionalism on the part of the design team.

MaverickWolf wrote:

Quite the post there Myrokhad, and I like your ideas.

Thank you, sir! (ma'am?)(either way, please accept that I'm humbled by your praise. It's much appreciated).

MaverickWolf wrote:

However, I think the point of being a psion or wilder is just that: Your are PSIONIC ...

I agree that that's the heart of the character concept. I submit, merely for the sake of discussion, that the beliefs regarding psionics in the DM's chosen campaign setting will determine whether or not this is what the character presents to the game world.

Outside of Dark Sun, nearly every game I've played in over the past few decades have viewed psionic manifestations as aberrant, disturbing or worse. This could well be how my various and sundry DMs have interpreted their worlds, but it seems to be a trend.

In a similar vein, I've always seen arcane and divine necromancer PCs hide their essential nature as well -- from the superstitious townsfolk, at least.

If your game world allows psions to walk tall down main street, that's ... actually, that's kind of awesome in its own right. I'd like to play there.

MaverickWolf wrote:

Don't get me a wrong, a 'psionic' class that uses psionics more as a buffer than a pure ability is a fine idea (and could probably be done well with the PsyWar given a better power list). ... The things you're discussing actually sound like they'd be better off as feats for a normal character with a touch of psionics ...

I take your point; well said. Yes, I agree ... I have yet to actually play or see played a character who ever progressed entirely within their psionic path. Every single instance of a psionic character that I've watched or played has always multi-classed (at least, in 3.X games). That may be skewing my perception.

No offense is intended in my posts; merely a desire to spark discussion and explore some ideas.

Let me say again: y'all are doing great work here, and I'm pleased to be able to watch the process.

They might not be popular ideas, but I'm going to voice them anyways.

1) Shouldn't a manifester get penalties for wearing armor? It is pretty easy to sacrifice a manifesting level for a fighter level and get the all the weapon and armor proficiencies. This is quite a boon for a psion.

2) Shouldn't the energy powers focus on 1 type of energy? I hate to say it, but casters need to take a feat to do this. I've always felt that only the kineticist should be able to do this for free. The other psions should have to pay at least 1 or 2 points for it.

MaximusRift wrote:

They might not be popular ideas, but I'm going to voice them anyways. 1) Shouldn't a manifester get penalties for wearing armor? It is pretty easy to sacrifice a manifesting level for a fighter level and get the all the weapon and armor proficiencies. This is quite a boon for a psion. 2) Shouldn't the energy powers focus on 1 type of energy? I hate to say it, but casters need to take a feat to do this. I've always felt that only the kineticist should be able to do this for free. The other psions should have to pay at least 1 or 2 points for it.

I'd like to offer an answer to both of those. Psionics has two important differences to arcane magic (and for that matter, divine magic).

1) Psionics does not require elaborate gestures or incantations to use, merely concentration. Armour simply does not interfere with this, in the same way that it does not interfere with Divine magic. If divine casters don't have any kind of penalty, why would a psionic one? On the same note, a psionic character has powers that push their AC up far enough to ignore needing armour by the time they reach mid levels anyway. Bear in mind a psion is not going to waste a lot of resources on armour when he has more important items to fork out for. If you want to be a heavily armoured manifester, you become a psychic warrior - which class would be seriously nerfed by applying such restrictions to psionics.

2) One thrust of psionics is that the powers are either known or not, there are no 'spellbooks' for psionics. As such they are more flexible than arcane spells to make up for the fact that they know fewer of them. I will also point out that casters do not need a feat to do this. They have spells, and they can use different spells to use different energy types. A first level sorcerer knows six spells, a wizard knows many more. A first level Psion knows three powers. A first level Wilder or Psychic Warrior each know one.

Now if my first level Wilder takes Energy Ray as his first power, and it has four energy types, I still have not got the same scope as a first level Draconic Sorcerer - all I can do is zap things. In compensation, I can do it every well, but it's all I can do. I don't have free use of 0-level powers (because there are none), and I don't have so much in the way of choices. I will also point out that not all powers have this flexibility - some are unaugmentable and do only one thing.

If you compare the Spells vs Powers at high level, it's even more one-sided. At level 20 a wizard will know as many spells as he likes, and a sorcerer has a total of 43 spells. A psion has 36 powers, a psychic warrior 20 and a wilder 11. Without flexibility to their powers, they are sunk.

MaximusRift wrote:

They might not be popular ideas, but I'm going to voice them anyways. 1) Shouldn't a manifester get penalties for wearing armor? It is pretty easy to sacrifice a manifesting level for a fighter level and get the all the weapon and armor proficiencies. This is quite a boon for a psion. 2) Shouldn't the energy powers focus on 1 type of energy? I hate to say it, but casters need to take a feat to do this. I've always felt that only the kineticist should be able to do this for free. The other psions should have to pay at least 1 or 2 points for it.

Dabbler pretty well covered point #1. As it stands, I believe we will be implementing that rule for point #2 (with the kineticist being an exception).

MaverickWolf wrote:

As it stands, I believe we will be implementing that rule for point #2 (with the kineticist being an exception).

Please don't. Having that flexibility is something I have found vital in playing a blaster-focussed Wilder. Without it, they will just suck, unless you have a feat in mind to allow any class to do this? That would be reasonable.

Edit: and I will add it does break the PF ethos of: Take Nothing Away.

We are pretty sure that we will go with the Kineticist being the only PSION to be able to manifest all forms of Energy. What we do with the Wilder remains to be seen in this regard.

Angellis_ater wrote:

We are pretty sure that we will go with the Kineticist being the only PSION to be able to manifest all forms of Energy. What we do with the Wilder remains to be seen in this regard.

I shall wait with baited breath ....

I'd like to say, BTW, that I really like what you've done with the classes so far (although I know I've raised some issues with the Soulknife, most of my questions have been answered). I think I made a good argument for the powers being more flexible than spells above, but I guess we'll see ...

What's the reasoning behind #2? I thought one of the psionic myths was that energy powers were overpowered. Why apply a nerf to them?

Zeuy wrote:

What's the reasoning behind #2? Isn't one of the psionic myths counters that energy powers are NOT overpowered?

In my experience, they aren't. It is a common complaint of people who haven't tried to play a psionic character as opposed to a vancian caster and see it as an unfair advantage, but in practice the lack of number of powers makes it essential that if you are going to blast somebody you need the option of finding a way of blasting them that will hurt them. A vancian caster has that in the scope of spells they have.