I know that psions use intelligence, but it never made sense because it was something they were born with, and not something that can be learned. What are the chances of it switching to charisma?

OK, I'm not even truly sure how to respond to this. Psions learn to access their powers. While it may have been there the whole time, they need to make the effort to learn to use them. It's not like a Wilder, who likely stumbles upon the powers he has. To a psion, their power comes from knowledge, not instinct, not even entirely force of will. While it is purely within them, it's power they have to train themselves to use.

It's more like say, me & math. I am naturally talented at math. I hate it, but I'm very good at it, learning it easily. The talent for that math has always been there, but I won't go further with it unless I apply myself to learning new uses of it. That's what a psion does.

A wilder taps into power that was pretty much always there. A psion uses the power that was there and learns to expand it outward.

Phil covered this pretty well, but to be quite blunt, there is 0 chance of us doing that for this project.

If you wanted to change that for your own games, you're more than welcome to, but for the book itself, psions will stay Intelligence, Psychic Warriors will stay Wisdom, and Wilders will stay Charisma.

also, if I may add, it is written somewhere in the XPH that any sentient creature is capable of tapping into psionic potential.

Frankly, I'd be fine with restricting psionics to INT and WIS, much like Arcane is restricted to INT and CHA and Divine is tied to WIS and CHA. It's a bit neater.

But then, I generally just don't use the Wilder, so that makes it easier on me.... I certainly don't expect any changes to be done to a PF XPH in this regard. That breaks backwards compatibility a fair bit, though Paizo did make Paladins charisma-based casters, which was a pleasant surprise.

they did that to make Paladins suffer less from MAD, which was one of the biggest complaints people had.

concerro wrote:

I know that psions use intelligence, but it never made sense because it was something they were born with, and not something that can be learned. What are the chances of it switching to charisma?

Who said it was something they were born with? Why shouldn't it be possible to learn to use psionics the way people learn to use magic? I would agree that in the case of a psionic race they are born with more of that potential, but that does not mean that all non-psionic races don't have potential, albeit at a lower starting point.

Dabbler273 wrote:

concerro wrote: I know that psions use intelligence, but it never made sense because it was something they were born with, and not something that can be learned. What are the chances of it switching to charisma? Who said it was something they were born with? Why shouldn't it be possible to learn to use psionics the way people learn to use magic? I would agree that in the case of a psionic race they are born with more of that potential, but that does not mean that all non-psionic races don't have potential, albeit at a lower starting point.

The book does. Read the background for psions for the Expanded Handbook and the one for Sorcerers.

Now if the fluff is going to change that is fine. I just want them to match up.

I am born with the potential to do math.

therefore, my ability to perfom, understand, and apply math is completely unrelated to intelligence.

[T/F] (1 mark)

(sorry, I've had a lot of tests in school this past week... i think it's affecting me =P )

That pretty much sums it up, Jaid.

If a character has psionic potential, they can access it in a number of ways: by understanding and analysing it (Intelligence), by force of will (Wisdom) and by intuition and emotion (Charisma).

Hence those using Intelligence have the greatest breadth of power and can apply it in more ways, and those using emotion without analysis (Charisma) have the least breadth, but greater power.

Female Wilder + PMS = The destroyer of worlds...

<Evil Grin> As I say, the Wilder lends itself to 'blaster' builds ...

www.ukroleplayers.com/...amp;t=4132

concerro wrote:

Dabbler273 wrote: concerro wrote: I know that psions use intelligence, but it never made sense because it was something they were born with, and not something that can be learned. What are the chances of it switching to charisma? Who said it was something they were born with? Why shouldn't it be possible to learn to use psionics the way people learn to use magic? I would agree that in the case of a psionic race they are born with more of that potential, but that does not mean that all non-psionic races don't have potential, albeit at a lower starting point. The book does. Read the background for psions for the Expanded Handbook and the one for Sorcerers. Now if the fluff is going to change that is fine. I just want them to match up.

Sorry about the long period between post. I had actually "lost" this thread, then I forgot about it, then for some reason I had a strong urge to hunt it down.

Dabbler273 wrote:

That pretty much sums it up, Jaid. If a character has psionic potential, they can access it in a number of ways: by understanding and analysing it (Intelligence), by force of will (Wisdom) and by intuition and emotion (Charisma). Hence those using Intelligence have the greatest breadth of power and can apply it in more ways, and those using emotion without analysis (Charisma) have the least breadth, but greater power.

So your method of understanding determines your class?

Yes, more or less. Although I would go so far as to say "Wisdom = Willpower/Discipline" rather than just "force of will". Considering the Psychic Warrior, for example.

Exactly! Wisdom represents more of the kind of will you need to be a disciplined soldier than intelligence or charisma. I would rate it as a measure of understanding and training:

Psions exist in complex societies where those with psionic potential are recognised and trained and educated from an early age (the kalashtar from Eberron are a great example). This does not preclude an intelligent, analytical individual with the advantages of education and some psionic potential from developing their abilities on their own.

Psychic warriors exist where soldiers with psionic potential are rigorously trained in martial skills, and may be trained or spontaneously learn how to use their psychic potential to enhance themselves beyond their peers; they can be spontaneous or trained, but training can probably help those with lesser potential achieve it more easily. Unfortunately we don't have access to the other classes that focused on wisdom and psionics - the ardent and the divine mind from Complete Psionic.

Wilders exist where the psionic potential of the individual simply breaks out and cuts loose of it's own accord. Not every unrecognised, untrained psionic will become a wilder - it takes those with a certain kind of personality (ie a high charisma) to express their powers this way.

The soulknife is a way that those psionic members of a society may express their power without actually being required to manifest powers. To go back to the kalashtar example, their societies emphasise on psionic power made those with the higher wisdom more likely to follow the path of the monk or ardent than the psychic warrior - those following the dedicated warrior's path were soulknives.