Beta Release - Soulknife

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#1: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Jeremy.Smith , Location: Allen, TX Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 09:48 PM
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Phil sent me over the soulknife that he and Andreas have been hard at work completing.

It has a couple minor typos and needs a little formatting... but nothing that affects the actual mechanics of the class.

So, feel free to post your feedback!
#2: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Kreek Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:34 PM
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I was just reading over the sheet and noticed that dual imbue was in both blade skills and advanced skills. just wondering which it is supposed to be in.

=)
#3: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Frerezar Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:14 PM
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My issues with it:

Toppling Strike - Why take 3 feats to be a tripper, just be a soulknife (really bonus equal to half the damage?)

On the Run - Why take 3 feats, just be a soulknife

Bladewind - why take 5 feats? just be a soulknife

Furious Charge - Pounce is unavailable to any other class except for the psy war, who can only do it limited times per day. There has got to be a reazon for that..

Seriously thou, all this ¨skills¨ duplicate and make too many feat trees obsolete. If this was the only class feature of the soulknife (beyond it´s blade of course) then it would be fine, because it would make up for having less feats than the fighter (when comparing one to another of course). But right now it seems like too much on top of the great versatility of the mindblade (have the right weapon at the right moment whenever), the psychic strike (better than the cavalier´s challenge right now), 6 freaking skills per level, 2 good saves, oh and of course some spell like abilities to give it versatility.

Sorry if I sound ranty, but this is just how I feel about it.

PS: Oh I forgot, the 4 free feats for which you do not have to meet the prerequisites. might as well just say F%/(& you fighter.
#4: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Dabbler273 , Location: UK Post Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:55 PM
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It's good. It's very good. It may be too good.
I really like the feel of it now, though. It's just a question of paring away the over-powered-ness to get it into balance with other melee classes.
#5: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Alzrius Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:15 AM
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I'm still going over this in full, but one thing I noticed right away (notwithstanding that the last sentence in the third quote has "full-round" as two words, rather than being hyphenated):

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As a move action, a soulknife can form a semi-solid weapon composed of psychic energy distilled from her own mind. A soulknife has three options whenever forming her mind blade - skirmisher, defender, and striker.

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The moment she relinquishes her grip on her blade, it dissipates (unless she intends to throw it; see below).

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The mind blade retains the last chosen form every time it is formed until the soulknife reshapes it. If the soulknife chooses to reshape her blade, it requires a full round action to do so.

Now, the first quote makes it sound like the soulknife can choose which option the mind blade is formed in each and every time they form their mind blade. As such, reshaping it as a full-round action seems superfluous if they can just drop the weapon(s) as a free action, reform it in a different shape as a move action, and still have a standard action or another move action left in the round.
#6: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 05:38 AM
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I will give a full proper response later, but I'm on a phone posting this right now.

Azrius, thank you for calling that out. I'll look into rewording that, as the full-round action reshape is the intent, as that is the way it has worked in the past.

At Frerezar and Dabbler - Most of your complaints existed in the Alpha version, and the increased BAB does not effect them in this version (thanks to the Alpha version's mind blade specialist ability). Why are they problems now?

Honestly, I'm not even going to have the pounce discussion. Frankly, while cool, it's a highly overrated ability. You don't really get to charge that often.

Bladewind is a default soulknife ability in 3.x. It can only be taken one level earlier here.
#7: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Lordmonkeysama Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 07:13 AM
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Ok, some good stuff here, couple of things i'd like to comment on:

1) On the Run is basically Spring Attack, but as a class feature. Speed of Thought, same thing, but better. can we make On the Run somewhat better than Spring Attack? due to having a fair amount of feats in PF, and a less amount of Blade Skills to take, i have a hard time seeing somebody taking On the Run as a Blade Skill as opposed to Spring Attack as a feat.

2) Reach is listed under Advanced Skills, which are gained at 10th level, yet says you need to be at least 6th level to take it.

finally, Mind Blade Mastery kinda sucks, unless i am totally missing something. the earlier capstone was far better and fit way more thematically.
#8: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:06 AM
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On the Run is technically Speed of Thought + Shot on the Run (though only with a thrown weapon). Unless PF combined those two feats, it is better. And we didn't cut out more than one or two blade skills (if any), and actually added a couple, and you get more of them.

Reach is a typo from a C/P. It should be advanced. Originally listed it under regular Blade Skills, but decided it belonged in Advanced if everyone had access to it.

As for Mind Blade Mastery, I'm missing how changing out your configurations as often as you want is not awesome. Especially considering bane is on the list, and you can switch out energy types whenever you want, based on what will served you best at the moment.

@Dabbler, now that I'm on a comp: It is highly likely that Enlightened Mind and Hidden Knowledge will vanish from the class. They were initially put in as flavorul filler to avoid dead levels, to be completely honest. Both Andreas and myself are quite comfortable removing them entirely.

As for skill points, I can see you point, as this version of the soulknife is more fighter than ranger, whereas the alpha versions were more leaning towards ranger. Lower than 4 is not going to happen (and should never happen to any class), but I do see where you're coming from.

@ Frerezar: Actually, I think I need to add a prerequisite of Weapon Special (trip) to the Toppling Strike blade skill, since you can't normally trip without a weapon with that ability. And then it's taking two of your blade skills. Would you be more comfortable if it continued to provoke AoOs? (Not guaranteeing any changes, just looking for feedback.)

As for those 4 feats: You only ignore ability score pre-reqs (so no Dex requirement for TWF, which shouldn't be there to begin with, though I won't get into that here). You have to meet all other requirements.
#9: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Dabbler273 , Location: UK Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:52 AM
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MaverickWolf wrote:
At Frerezar and Dabbler - Most of your complaints existed in the Alpha version, and the increased BAB does not effect them in this version (thanks to the Alpha version's mind blade specialist ability). Why are they problems now?

For the same reason I'd say that is you were building a Gish class from a wizard, as you scale up the BAB the number of spells per level should come down. The Blade Skills were a little over-powered with the 3/4 BAB. Full BAB makes them a lot over powered, specifically:
The only problem here is that you don't seem sure whether you wanted the soulknife to be the fighter, the ranger or the paladin, so you combined the best features of all three, and it's just a bit much.
#10: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:26 AM
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I'm honestly not comfortable with removing the On the Run ability. Frankly, I believe the Spring Attack tree is larger than it should be to begin with, and Shot on the Run and Spring Attack should've been rolled into one feat. That said, I would be comfortable making it an Advanced Skill (and I'm really not sure why I didn't to begin with). I'm also not replacing 4 feats with it. You do not gain the benefits of Dodge or Mobility. You simply gain the effects of Shot on the Run and Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run is at a severe range deficiency compared to the ranged weapons normally used in conjunction with that feat).

My issue with Improved Trip is that it requires Combat Expertise. That doesn't make sense as a Striker bonus feat, and calling out one feat (Improved Trip) as a feat that gets to ignore a non-Ability Score pre-req (Combat Expertise) doesn't make any sense. As a Striker, I am NEVER going to take Combat Expertise, and therefore I won't gain access to Improved Trip.

That said, flavor-wise, the Toppling Strike skill probably should provoke an AoO. Flattening an opponent like that probably means you're leaving an opening or three in the process (though I wouldn't have getting hit interrupt the attack).

As for Furious Charge, I'll leave that discussion to Andreas. It is a pet peeve of mine in general, and I don't want to get overly defensive or argumentative here.
#11: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Dabbler273 , Location: UK Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:47 AM
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MaverickWolf wrote:
I'm honestly not comfortable with removing the On the Run ability. Frankly, I believe the Spring Attack tree is larger than it should be to begin with, and Shot on the Run and Spring Attack should've been rolled into one feat. That said, I would be comfortable making it an Advanced Skill (and I'm really not sure why I didn't to begin with). I'm also not replacing 4 feats with it. You do not gain the benefits of Dodge or Mobility. You simply gain the effects of Shot on the Run and Spring Attack (and Shot on the Run is at a severe range deficiency compared to the ranged weapons normally used in conjunction with that feat).

I agree with you in principal, but unfortunately it leaves other combat classes out in the cold. There are benefits to making it a feat-tree for the Skirmisher, though - among which is you can then gain Wind Stance and Lightning Stance more easily which are thematically very good for the Skirmisher build, but which otherwise are perhaps not worth bothering with if you can get the Spring Attack feature without the pre-requisites.

MaverickWolf wrote:
My issue with Improved Trip is that it requires Combat Expertise. That doesn't make sense as a Striker bonus feat, and calling out one feat (Improved Trip) as a feat that gets to ignore a non-Ability Score pre-req (Combat Expertise) doesn't make any sense. As a Striker, I am NEVER going to take Combat Expertise, and therefore I won't gain access to Improved Trip.

Ah, but you are forgetting that as a Bonus Feat you don't need the prerequisite, just as the Monk doesn't.

MaverickWolf wrote:
That said, flavor-wise, the Toppling Strike skill probably should provoke an AoO. Flattening an opponent like that probably means you're leaving an opening or three in the process (though I wouldn't have getting hit interrupt the attack).

Quite likely. Really, my issue with this ability is not so much that it is overpowered as that you are doing something that there are feats to do that work just as well. You could write in for it: "You can overbear an opponent and knock them flat, in effect you gain the Improved Trip feat" and have done.

MaverickWolf wrote:
As for Furious Charge, I'll leave that discussion to Andreas. It is a pet peeve of mine in general, and I don't want to get overly defensive or argumentative here.

Fair enough.

One thing that does strike me is that you could replace a lot of the blade skills with combat feats - Blade Storm is functionally Whirlwind Attack, for example. I'm not saying that you should, but that you could replace some of them with a "Combat Feat" option. I can see why you don't want to, because many of these come without the prerequisites that make the feats awkward, but then while we don't want to make the soulknife too weak, we don't want to make the fighter have another reason to stay in the tavern and cry in his beer, and I think that needs careful thought.
#12: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: The_Wraith Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:19 PM
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I have a question regarding this particular sentence:

"In addition to the above specific lists, any focus can use these bonus feats to acquire any mind blade feats or weapon specific feats such as Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, but only for her mind blade."

Does this include the Fighter-only Combat feats like Weapon Specialization or Greater Weapon Focus (like in the Alpha version), or since those have a specific class-level requirement, they cannot be chosen ?

If the former, I'm not pleased by this choice (like in the Alpha), since the SK steps too much on the Fighter toes. If the latter, on the contrary I'm very pleased, since the SK has only one Fighter-only feat on his list (Greater Shield Focus), and with that I can really live with (another +1 to AC to the specific 'High-AC' path of the SK is not overpowered, since a Fighter has other AC tricks that the Defender Sk doesn't have - namely Armor Training).

(I know, somebody could say 'hey, even offensively the Fighter has other tricks, namely Weapon Training', but these tricks were given in Pathfinder specifically to boost the offense of the Fighter, which admittedly he was lacking in 3.x - and allowing another +2 hit and +4 damage to any path of the SK, on top of their 1001+ combos with Blade Skills, Psychic Strike, Enlightned Mind, Hidden Knowledge, AND free bonuses to a weapon basically immune to Sunder and Disarm from 5th level on, thanks to Quick Draw...)
#13: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Lordmonkeysama Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 03:24 PM
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maybe its just me, but the whole configuration thing is rather confusing which is why MBM seems to kinda suck to me. Even with the explanation it still seems lacking compared to A) what the prior capstone gave and 2) other classes capstones, like the various death attacks or some of the niffty ones a wizard gets.

out of curiosuty, why the change from the Alpha capstone to this one??
#14: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Frerezar Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 04:42 PM
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I think I´m starting to see a couple things here. Mr Maverick It is clear that you feel very strongly towards many of the melee options available to melee classes around the table (mostly feats), like unnecesary prerequisites, feat trees being too long. And as such you try to ¨fix¨ those by making them ¨the way they should be done¨ when it comes to your soulknife.

Now, on a vaccum, I would say that I love this soulknife, it is versatile, powerfull and very fun to play (or so it would seem). However, those little changes based on your perception of what should or should not be when it comes to melee classes (which I am not completly disagreeing with) make it stand tall above all his close combat cousins.

The problem is that the disfunctionality of many melee mechanics cannot (and should not) be addressed by making ONE class that doesn´t have them.

Right now this guy is a Full BAB class with 6 skill points per level, an aditional damage dealing option, free feats, spell like abilities, and skills that replace feat trees (and are sometimes better than those feat trees).

I hope this helps clarify my issues with the SK.

PS: Regarding toppling strike having aprerequisite and provoking that would put it on par with having to spend 3 feats and wasting points in inteligence for freaking combat expertice.
#15: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 06:15 PM
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Frerezar wrote:
Right now this guy is a Full BAB class with 6 skill points per level, an aditional damage dealing option, free feats, spell like abilities, and skills that replace feat trees (and are sometimes better than those feat trees).
You mean the ranger? (other than the feat tree thing.) And as I've already stated, it does not replace entire feat trees. Replacing an entire feat tree would mean you get all the benefits of said tree with only one skill. That said, the psi-like abilities will more than likely be vanishing (as previously stated), and I will be talking to Andreas regarding skill points.

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PS: Regarding toppling strike having a prerequisite and provoking that would put it on par with having to spend 3 feats and wasting points in inteligence for freaking combat expertice.
While I obviously make no guarantees on changes, as this is a co-op effort between Andreas and myself, this will certainly be looked at.
#16: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 06:26 PM
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Dabbler273 wrote:
I agree with you in principal, but unfortunately it leaves other combat classes out in the cold. There are benefits to making it a feat-tree for the Skirmisher, though - among which is you can then gain Wind Stance and Lightning Stance more easily which are thematically very good for the Skirmisher build, but which otherwise are perhaps not worth bothering with if you can get the Spring Attack feature without the pre-requisites.
You mean combat classes who get to ignore prerequisites for their bonus feats entirely (monk/ranger)? Or combat classes who get some of the most powerful class features available (paladin/barbarian, depending on build)? Or the fighter, who gets class features no one else can touch (especially for armor)? I am perfectly OK with moving On the Run to an advanced skill, or at least giving it a level pre-req of 6 or 8, but I don't feel it needs to be removed entirely.

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Ah, but you are forgetting that as a Bonus Feat you don't need the prerequisite, just as the Monk doesn't.
Not true. The monk's bonus feats class feature specifically calls out that he does not have to meet the requirements. By your logic, fighters wouldn't have to meet any prerequisites, because they are bonus feats. Monks and rangers both specifically call out that they do not need to meet prerequisites. Beyond ability scores (a line I'm considering removing), soulknives have to meet the prerequisites, and I have no plans on calling out otherwise.

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Quite likely. Really, my issue with this ability is not so much that it is overpowered as that you are doing something that there are feats to do that work just as well. You could write in for it: "You can overbear an opponent and knock them flat, in effect you gain the Improved Trip feat" and have done.

I understand your point regarding Toppling Strike, and will talk to Andreas, but I like the current version better for flavor reasons. Realistically, if you're going up and baseball batting someone, the harder you hit them, the more likely they are to fall. In game terms, that's represented by damage, so I wanted to have it based on damage. And the proposed change would provoke, which Improved Trip does not, so there would be a tradeoff for the higher bonus.

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One thing that does strike me is that you could replace a lot of the blade skills with combat feats - Blade Storm is functionally Whirlwind Attack, for example. I'm not saying that you should, but that you could replace some of them with a "Combat Feat" option. I can see why you don't want to, because many of these come without the prerequisites that make the feats awkward, but then while we don't want to make the soulknife too weak, we don't want to make the fighter have another reason to stay in the tavern and cry in his beer, and I think that needs careful thought.
Actually, Bladestorm is far beyond Whirlwind. BladeWIND is functionally Whirlwind, but as stated in a previous post, it's a pull over from the original SK write-ups, and therefore it is going to stay as a default ability. While some old class features are getting rolled into each other (shape mind blade becoming a normal part of the mind blade, multiple throw being rolled into throw mind blade), we really don't want to remove any of the old class features, even if they're no longer automatically gained.
#17: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 06:36 PM
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The_Wraith wrote:
I have a question regarding this particular sentence:

"In addition to the above specific lists, any focus can use these bonus feats to acquire any mind blade feats or weapon specific feats such as Weapon Focus and Improved Critical, but only for her mind blade."

Does this include the Fighter-only Combat feats like Weapon Specialization or Greater Weapon Focus (like in the Alpha version), or since those have a specific class-level requirement, they cannot be chosen ?
I will make sure a line is added to clarify this. Due to the complaints during the Alpha, Andreas and I chose to remove the access to fighter only feats (aside from the Greater Shield Focus you already mentioned, which is only available to one path).

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If the former, I'm not pleased by this choice (like in the Alpha), since the SK steps too much on the Fighter toes. If the latter, on the contrary I'm very pleased, since the SK has only one Fighter-only feat on his list (Greater Shield Focus), and with that I can really live with (another +1 to AC to the specific 'High-AC' path of the SK is not overpowered, since a Fighter has other AC tricks that the Defender Sk doesn't have - namely Armor Training).
The soulknife does have a mild form of Armor Training available in this. That said, it never grants full movement in armor (the best thing about armor training in my mind), and it progresses at a much slower pace.

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(I know, somebody could say 'hey, even offensively the Fighter has other tricks, namely Weapon Training', but these tricks were given in Pathfinder specifically to boost the offense of the Fighter, which admittedly he was lacking in 3.x - and allowing another +2 hit and +4 damage to any path of the SK, on top of their 1001+ combos with Blade Skills, Psychic Strike, Enlightned Mind, Hidden Knowledge, AND free bonuses to a weapon basically immune to Sunder and Disarm from 5th level on, thanks to Quick Draw...)
NOTE: Quick Draw is another carry over. This is not a new benefit of the soulknife. That said, the fighter in PF is still lacking compared to other melee classes unless you're planning on tanking (in which case the fighter is freaking awesome - hooray for full movement in heavy armor). Not as badly, but it did not get boosted enough to put it on par with other classes that also got boosted.
#18: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 07:08 PM
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Lordmonkeysama wrote:
maybe its just me, but the whole configuration thing is rather confusing which is why MBM seems to kinda suck to me. Even with the explanation it still seems lacking compared to A) what the prior capstone gave and 2) other classes capstones, like the various death attacks or some of the niffty ones a wizard gets.
If I may ask, what do you find confusing sir? Is it simply a matter of wording? Perhaps an example would be in order within the text (or, more likely, within a sidebar)? I'd like to be able to clear up the confusion if possible.

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out of curiosuty, why the change from the Alpha capstone to this one??
Andreas and I wanted a more coherent capstone that applied to all the soulknives, instead of splitting them apart. Honestly, the previous capstones were not balanced well with each other, and we felt that a single capstone for all three paths was a better option.
#19: Re: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: MaverickWolf , Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 08:50 PM
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A quick question for everyone: I'm looking over the blade skills, and I've run into a second thought for the Enchanted Shield Bash blade skill. Does anyone see any problems with that blade skill? I'm thinking that it should perhaps increase the penalty to enhancement bonus when used, but I'm not sure. Otherwise, I'm thinking it should maybe have a level requirement of 6 (the option I'm leaning more heavily towards). Any other opinions on this one?
#20: Beta Release - Soulknife Author: Hunterofthedusk Post Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 09:11 PM
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Something I've noticed is that even though you no longer split the blade skills into groups (skirmisher, striker, and defender), some of them still say that you must have at least x defender skills to choose. Also, if I may ask, why did you take out the ability to spend a blade skill on one of the form focus feats?

I am glad that you decided to make the class a full BAB, and most of the blade skills seem pretty balanced. I'm sad to see Twin Strike be moved to the Advanced Talents section, but I'll get over it... as soon as I hit level 10 Wink
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