I have to say, I'm on the ref/will side of the saves fence here. Otherwise, from the discussions here, I think the SK is definitely shaping up nicely.

My part of this is that "psionic potential" isn't all "in the mind". A Soulknife oozes with psionic power, but in the instance of a more cerebral warrior, he would become a Psychic Warrior, or if just being more cerebral, a Psion. Uncheck emotions and psionic potential gives us a Wilder. The Soulknife, he channels the power of his mind through and into a physical vessel. In my minds eye, the body is the channeling device of said mindblade.

Channeling psionic power through your body explains the faster reflexes and the greater resistance more than being able to withstand mental effects.

I am with Mr Andreas here, flavorwise it makes sense. Also, giving it good will progression sets it appart too much from other melee classes (which it is after all).

PS: Not to threadjack but how is the art for the book coming along?

Frerezar: If you start a new thread about the art, I can perhaps give you a few previews!

Channeling psionic power through your body does explain that, but it is a flavor change.. Not that I'm against change in flavor, I'm just sad that I'm going to have to waste feats on Iron Will and Improved Iron will due to my fear of enchanters

MaverickWolf wrote:

I already have such a thing in the rules. If you read the section regarding enhancement bonuses, it notes that the total enhancement bonus also applies to Will saves made to maintain the mind blade (and absolutely nothing else). This actually makes your bonus higher than it would've been with a good Will save after 7th level or so (I'm lazy and don't know the exact math off hand). kevin_video, I understand your concern, but one of the reasons we changed the saves is because of the different focuses. Ref/Will does not make sense for all of them. Fort/Ref makes sense for almost any fighting class. The soulknife had a good Will save for one reason, and if there's only one situational reason for a good save, it's probably not the right save. (And Defenders really should have Fort, not Ref, so we compromised.)

You'll have to point it out to me because I don't see where it's mentioned at all about the bonus. Does this mean that a +9 mind blade gives you +9 to your Will when trying manifest the blade in a field?

If Defenders should have Fort, does that mean Knights and Swordsages are terrible builds because they have strong Will and poor Fort saves? Although I wouldn't disagree with the knight (which should have Fort AND Will).

Frerezar wrote:

I am with Mr Andreas here, flavorwise it makes sense. Also, giving it good will progression sets it appart too much from other melee classes (which it is after all).

Again, I point out the knight and swordsage, as well as any other base class and PrC that has high BAB and a strong Will, but a poor Fort.

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

Channeling psionic power through your body does explain that, but it is a flavor change.. Not that I'm against change in flavor, I'm just sad that I'm going to have to waste feats on Iron Will and Improved Iron will due to my fear of enchanters

Agreed. I'd actually be less afraid to take this class with the poor Will, if one of the bonus feats you got was Iron Will, or if one of the Blade skills mimicked "Moment of the Perfect Mind" from Bo9S where you made a Concentration check instead of your regular Will save. Granted Concentration's gone, but a lot of DMs have house ruled that Perception could be the trade off.

kevin_video wrote:

You'll have to point it out to me because I don't see where it's mentioned at all about the bonus. Does this mean that a +9 mind blade gives you +9 to your Will when trying manifest the blade in a field?

Beta Document wrote:

On a successful save, the soulknife maintains her mind blade for a number of rounds equal to her class level before she needs to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, the mind blade vanishes. As a move action on her turn, the soulknife can attempt a new Will save to rematerialize her mind blade while she remains within the psionics negating effect. She gains a bonus on the Will saves equal to the total enhancement bonus of her mind blade (see below).

Quote::

If Defenders should have Fort, does that mean Knights and Swordsages are terrible builds because they have strong Will and poor Fort saves? Although I wouldn't disagree with the knight (which should have Fort AND Will).

Swordsage is a 3/4 BAB class that is closer in design to a psychic warrior or a monk than a soulknife. It makes sense for it to have Will. And as you say, the knight should be both.

Quote::

Agreed. I'd actually be less afraid to take this class with the poor Will, if one of the bonus feats you got was Iron Will, or if one of the Blade skills mimicked "Moment of the Perfect Mind" from Bo9S where you made a Concentration check instead of your regular Will save. Granted Concentration's gone, but a lot of DMs have house ruled that Perception could be the trade off.

There are more than enough additional feats in Pathfinder (especially in combination with the blade skills and form focus) to give you space for Iron Will.





On a side thought I've had: I'm considering the idea of having maintaining the mind blade disable the enchantments, just like for a normal warrior. So you'd still have your weapon, but it would just act as a normal weapon.

Here's a question: Why don't you want to set it apart from the other Melee classes? Is being different a bad thing?

The bonus on saves to maintain the mind blade in a field seems very much like the Alpha's Mind Blade Specialist fix for the 3/4 BAB (and, the fix for the will save while maintaining). Why not just change the save to be Fortitude if the flavor is going to be "channeling it through your body"? It would reinforce that it is, indeed, because of their physical mastery and not their mental mastery that they form the mind blade.

Maintaining the mindblade in a null psionic field as a normal weapon would be balanced if you didn't have to make a Will Save. As-is, the Will Save is a double-or-nothing gamble; either you're MORE effective than your local Fighter (who has functional MW gear, while you have functional psionic gear), or LESS effective (you have nothing). May need to clarify that the mindblade is normal, not MW (unless you decide to make it MW if the enhancement is reduced to 0).

On a related tangent, it would help if you would clarify precisely which blade skills work in a null psionic field... or is it a blanket statement that NO blade skills function, even if the mindblade itself is still fully functional? Some of the blade skills seem to be more about the soulknife's personal functionality (such as Speed of Thought), while others are specifically enhancements to the mindblade itself (Mind Daggers).

@ MaverickWolf -- Adding that helped. Surely when it's reformatted it'll be a lot easier to read, and things like that will be easier to find.

MaverickWolf wrote:

There are more than enough additional feats in Pathfinder (especially in combination with the blade skills and form focus) to give you space for Iron Will.

I suppose, but you shouldn't have to be forced into getting the Iron Will feat. That's not really fair, regardless of the number of available feats you can get in PF. Again, depending on your DM, you may not get the PF progression, but still the original 3.5 one. Regardless, I like the idea of maintaining your blades giving you a bonus against enchantments, but not immunity to. That'd make you more powerful than an elf or half-elf. That way you'd be like the other psionics who, for a feat, can gain a bonus so long as they have a focus being maintained, or be immune if they release said focus.

@ Syonique -- I agree that if you can't maintain the blade, you should still be able to have them. Even if you're in an anti-magic field, mages still have their weapons (whether natural or crafted). So having basic blades would make it fair as opposed to making your character run around, trying not to get killed, or flailing their arms and legs wildly and getting smacked around because they don't have Improved Unarmed Strike.

I too would like to see clarification regarding fields and their affect on the Blade skills.

if you don't get the PF progression of feats, while using a PF class(which is what this is, by the way) then your DM is really just not worth playing under, and you need to suck it up and deal that you can't play D&D.

That's a little harsh, but i'm tired of seeing your posts about what this DM may or may not do or allow or whatever. the personal style of a DM or player should NEVER be considered when designing, PERIOD.

Did you know that officially, all PrCs are only allowable if the DM says so. they first appeared in the DMG and contained a line that these could only be taken if your DM said you could or something akin to that. I believe(but am not positive) that PF continued that tradition, since the main book is both a player and DM manual.

Based on your continued comments about DM style, one should never design a PrC since a dick DM could tell you that all you get are the core classes. Hell, the more technical you get, the less and less one needs to design. these here Psionic classes should stop being designed, since not only is the XPH non-core, but DSP is a third party company, which some DMs frown upon.

Are you quite done now? Want to rant a little more? Perhaps be a little less civil? At any point did I say that MY DM was the dick DM? No. I just said that they exist. And yes, I know lots of them. And BTW, I did suck it up and deal that I can't play D&D. For four years. So if you'd kindly back off, and stop repeating what other people are saying (ie that rules should not be made based around DM house rules), we'll get back to this thread's topic, and why I'm saying what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that being forced to taken Iron Will isn't fair. If it's a PrC requirement then so be it. That's something you have to suck up, and take if it means getting that PrC (if the DM allows it ).

But there are other compromises. Like the mind blade enhancement being added to the Will save in a null psionics field, or the fact that perhaps it can added against enchantments. I'm fine with that. Love it in fact. Now should that bonus against enchantments be for free? I'm not expecting it to be, no, and I'm sure no one else is either. You can't get something for free, but it's nice when you do. It's just that explanations for why things are switched around is nice to have. Especially when you're used to things being a certain way. I mean, what if the Fighter or Psychic Warrior suddenly had a strong Will instead of Fort because they're suddenly not durable, but rather their sheer will is what helps them tough things out. You'd want an explanation, and not just take things at face value. A lot of people, including myself, just never saw the Soulknife as a fighter. They were usually treated as a rogue or scout type. Not too many "fighters" have sneak attack damage, psychic or otherwise. There's smite evil or smite good, yes, or there's the fighter variant thug which trades bonus feats for sneak attack damage, or the black guard, but they're just so incredibly few and far between. Suddenly going "It's going to be like this" is going to make a few people raise their eyebrows and go "Wait, what?" It's only natural. Humans just don't accept things at face value without knowing why things are what they if they're raised in a democratic society. Even DMs have to explain why they're house ruling what they change because rarely do players all have the same mindset as they do.

In all fairness, a wizard in an anti-magic field is pretty much *screwed*, weapon or no (but at least they still keep all their spell slots for use once they get out). A fighter in an anti-magic field is inconvenienced, but can still operate at his primary function; it's not like all his feats were just disabled or his BAB was just reduced.

A psion in a null psionic field is pretty much in the same boat as a wizard... soulknife should be in the same boat as a fighter.

Actually, i would like to rant a little more, thanks for the invite.

Who is forcing you to take Iron Will??? MaverikWolf already said that the Mind Blade enchantment is added to your Will save for the purposes of maintaining it in a Null-Psionics field, and yet you still have a desire for a strong Will save. However, you've gotten your answer and were told that with the slew of feats that exist, its quite easy to take Iron Will if you so desire. Nobody is forcing you to take it. I have a PC who has an abyssal Fort save, but i chose not to take Great Fortitude. Why? because not only did i have more important feats to take, but it didn't fit the character's flavor.

each version of the Soulknife has changed, from being a PrC to a Base Class to what DSP is now putting forth. you claim a lot of people didn't see it as a fighter, and yet it had a fair amount of things that made it fighter-like. DSP is just making it more fighter than it was and yet still keeping its sneaky-ranger esque flavor and abilities.

"each version of the Soulknife has changed, from being a PrC to a Base Class to what DSP is now putting forth"

^- this.

Some people still see it as a 3.0 rogue-like prestige class. Some remember the power point requirements, which meant any soulknives were multiclass psionic mage/rogues or cleric/rogues. Some saw them as a sort of psionic monk, since they don't need weapons. Some remember it as a base Fighter with medium BAB.

The earlier incarnations of soulknife were flawed. Can we agree upon that? I think everyone can agree upon that. The FLAVOR was cool, the MECHANICS needed work.

The NEW incarnation of soulknife... is good. It is flexible. It is enabling. You CAN make it into a high-agility rogue-like damage dealer, or a powerful two-handed damage dealer (with full BAB!), or a sturdy tank (something new!).

Is it perfect? Nah. Then again, what is?

Personally, I'd LIKE it if your Form Focus dictated your good Saves (after all, specialist mages etc. can get different class skills based on specialization), but it won't make or break the class for me. If you feel strongly enough about it, you could even ask your local DM to make a house rule to swap out one good Save for another; any fun DM would probably be open to the prospect. Sure, you won't win any min/max competitions that way, but who cares? The point of the game is to have fun.

Another thing that might be nice is having access to psionic powers, even minor ones like Burst or Catfall. That doesn't mean it has to be in the base class itself; it could be houserule'd in, or maybe added as Alternate Class Features or blade skills in a later release (perhaps comparing to the Rogue "minor arcana" etc. for inspiration).

Point is... I don't think the Saves to maintain a mindblade are an important enough point to stop soulknife from going out the door. Functionality in a null psionic field? Perhaps I am in the minority, but that is not something that *I* run into on a regular basis. It's sort of like Fighters and Rust Monsters; if your DM is throwing them at you all the time, find a new DM, because if they can't screw you over one way, they'll just find another way to do it.

Things that should warrant more attention are things like blade skills; those are what the soulknife will be USING on a regular, constant basis. If one of those is broken, you're going to see it a lot more often.

There's actually an interesting thought: For those who were OK with Hidden Knowledge and Enlightened Mind, would you be interested in seeing them show up as Blade Skills? As with any other idea presented, this is not a guarantee of anything happening, but Syonique's post made it pop into my head, so I figured I'd throw it out there. Additionally, if so, what powers would you like to see get access to with it? NOTE: Inertial Armor and Force Shield are out of the question. That would surpass the Mind Armor blade skills, easily.

I don't see why allowing them to be just like the Rogue's Talents, in that you choose the Power, but it's usable 3/day(0 lvl power) or 2/day(1st lvl), would be all that problematic.

If your worried about Inertial Armor and Force Screen surpassing Mind Armor, fret not. 1) IA provides an AC bonus, which would not stack with the bonus of Mind Armor, same with Force Screen and Mindshield. 2) make them unable to augmented.

this way, if you really wanted "mental armor" you'd have to spend 2 Blade Skills(make it just like Major Magic, wherein you need to take the minor form first) to get just a +4 to your AC, but your Mindblade isn't penalized.

First of all, keep the tone civil here. That goes for all participants. I will NOT make a second public statement, but bring down the mod-hammer. Thanks for understanding.

Regarding the GM-matter: We can NEVER design around such things. We have to assume a "basic general structure" for what we are writing for, which in this case is the Pathfinder rules.

MaverickWolf wrote:

There's actually an interesting thought: For those who were OK with Hidden Knowledge and Enlightened Mind, would you be interested in seeing them show up as Blade Skills? As with any other idea presented, this is not a guarantee of anything happening, but Syonique's post made it pop into my head, so I figured I'd throw it out there. Additionally, if so, what powers would you like to see get access to with it? NOTE: Inertial Armor and Force Shield are out of the question. That would surpass the Mind Armor blade skills, easily.

Actually, I like the idea of them as feats that give you powers you can use with your natural psionic power points. You could leave the choice of exactly what power they are to the character at the time of choosing the feat. Maznifester level would be, say, half SK level.

If you're using the 0-level Talent system I proposed, then you have 0-level powers to choose from; otherwise, all the powers would be considered 1st level. Since psionic characters can choose to gain 1 power point per Favored Class level (rather than an extra hit point or skill point), any soulknife could choose to gain power points specifically to fuel these powers.

Note that if you do use the Talent system, you have a definite trade-off between access to your Talents (by maintaining psionic focus) or using your focus for something else (such as recharging Psychic Strike).

Would definitely be interested in seeing it as an option, either as something soulknife-specific (blade skills) or available to any psionic character (a feat) or both. There *are* feats to allow non-casters access to a few low-level spells, after all, and a member of a psionic race may have a non-psionic class but want to expand on his racial heritage a bit.