Gah! I should consult my rulebook more often! You are correct. Taking a -4 to attack, just as in fighting defensively, would be appropriate then.

for all of 3.x, there was no need for a psychic harpoon, and it was ok. Now you want to create a feat that what, let's a soulknife shoot a barb of his mindblade with a length of psy-rope trailing behind it. and when it hits a target the SK can reel him in like some sort of super fisherman??

that just seem so silly. or he doesn't fire off a barb with psy-rope and instead it's just a really long mindblade...which is even worse. "hang on guys, let me extend my long sword by 20 ft and i'll stab that wizard and drag him over'"

it's cool idea, but it doesn't really fit the soulknife and i don't really see a need for it.

Well, as it is now the SK can build himself to be pretty much anything he wants to be (within reason). If a fighter can grab a harpoon and some rope, get proficiency with it using a feat and then pull the same crap, why can't a SK? Maybe he was a pirate, and used this tactic to pull the enemy cannoneers into the drink. If it seems silly to you and you don't think you need it, then don't take it, but I'm sure that for some people this will be a godsend. I'm not saying I'm one of those people, but it definitely makes me start thinking of Pirate Soulknives on the open Seas.

LMS - the Alpha/Beta is for rules based feedback. We can't really look at what kind of fluff each and every single person wants or likes, unfortunately. On the plus-side, it is far easier to ignore certain feats or to change the fluff, than it is to create well-balanced and well-functioning mechanics.

As Hunter puts it - there are loads of reasons. And to extend your example - one can make pretty much everything the Soulknife does to be "silly".

Hunterofthedusk wrote:

Well, as it is now the SK can build himself to be pretty much anything he wants to be (within reason). If a fighter can grab a harpoon and some rope, get proficiency with it using a feat and then pull the same crap, why can't a SK? Maybe he was a pirate, and used this tactic to pull the enemy cannoneers into the drink. If it seems silly to you and you don't think you need it, then don't take it, but I'm sure that for some people this will be a godsend. I'm not saying I'm one of those people, but it definitely makes me start thinking of Pirate Soulknives on the open Seas.

I have to say I agree. However, there are a lot of reasons this isn't very viable in normal combat:

• Getting it in deep enough to an armoured target to catch on it.
• Stopping it from tearing out (painful, but not the desired effect).
• Stopping the target cutting the rope.
• Stopping the target winning the tug-of-war and dragging you to them rather than vice verse.

If you can overcome thise for the normal blow, you can overcome it for the normal harpoon attack, the psychic harpoon becomes an option.

Edit: I'll add, I think this should be available to a normal harpoon user as well.

Why oh why oh why is the new soulknife a ranger build? I like the BAB, but Fort/Ref for saves? It should totally be the Ref/Will that it was before. Mainly for one specific, incredibly important reason: "Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save." How are you going to have a hope of doing that when your max is +6 at 20th? That is unless you're planning on expecting us to get +5 Cloaks/Vests of Resistance and half of the bonus feats to be Iron Will.

I also need the Max Bonus explained to me. You have a +9 mind blade at 20th, but you can only have a maximum bonus of +5? What? Do you mean that you can only have a maximum of 5 different enhancements on your blade? Like you could have a +1 Holy Shocking Burst Flaming Flaming Burst Ghost Touch mind blade, or do you mean you have a +4 Holy Shocking Mind Crusher mind blade?

The Blade skill for the shield bash confuses me as well. If anything, I'd say that the enhancements can go on it at lvl 4, but lvl 6 is too much of a wait.

kevin_video wrote:

Why oh why oh why is the new soulknife a ranger build? I like the BAB, but Fort/Ref for saves? It should totally be the Ref/Will that it was before. Mainly for one specific, incredibly important reason: "Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), a soulknife can attempt to sustain his mind blade by making a DC 20 Will save." How are you going to have a hope of doing that when your max is +6 at 20th? That is unless you're planning on expecting us to get +5 Cloaks/Vests of Resistance and half of the bonus feats to be Iron Will. I also need the Max Bonus explained to me. You have a +9 mind blade at 20th, but you can only have a maximum bonus of +5? What? Do you mean that you can only have a maximum of 5 different enhancements on your blade? Like you could have a +1 Holy Shocking Burst Flaming Flaming Burst Ghost Touch mind blade, or do you mean you have a +4 Holy Shocking Mind Crusher mind blade? The Blade skill for the shield bash confuses me as well. If anything, I'd say that the enhancements can go on it at lvl 4, but lvl 6 is too much of a wait.

the will save was originally boosted by the mind blade specialist ability or something like that... it may be getting added back in, hard to say.

at level 20, you can have a mindblade that is a +9 equivalent, but not a +9 mindblade; that is, you could have a +5 mindblade with an assortment of special abilities adding up to +4, but you couldn't just have a mindblade with a +9 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. you could also have a +1 mindblade with +8 worth of assorted abilities. it's all up to you. it just can't have an enhancement bonus of +6 or more.

Jaid wrote:

the will save was originally boosted by the mind blade specialist ability or something like that... it may be getting added back in, hard to say. at level 20, you can have a mindblade that is a +9 equivalent, but not a +9 mindblade; that is, you could have a +5 mindblade with an assortment of special abilities adding up to +4, but you couldn't just have a mindblade with a +9 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. you could also have a +1 mindblade with +8 worth of assorted abilities. it's all up to you. it just can't have an enhancement bonus of +6 or more.

Well hopefully something's done because right now, I know two DMs who'd do their very best to make sure they had that anti-psionic/magic field up 24/7 in every section of the world just to taunt us and our inability to roll DC 20. Like I said in the Slayer thread, there are a LOT of dick DM's out there.

Okay, THAT makes sense. Thanks for explaining that. So the +5 is just what the maximum the blade can be. Follow up though. Does this mean that you could go +5 with abilities on a greatsword version of the blade, or +5/+4 on the two short sword versions or sword and shield?

the split version has an effective bonus one lower, so you'd have to lose +1 from it. the three-way split (i believe it's still around; sword/shield/armor or sword/sword/armor) loses +2 worth of enhancements. in both cases, the maximum enhancement bonus (in the example, +5) should be the same, only the total effective bonus is changed (so you could have three +5 enhancement bonus pieces of gear, with each having +2 worth of abilities, or any sort of mixture as long as none of the equipment has more than a +5 enhancement bonus)

kevin_video wrote:

Well hopefully something's done because right now, I know two DMs who'd do their very best to make sure they had that anti-psionic/magic field up 24/7 in every section of the world just to taunt us and our inability to roll DC 20. Like I said in the Slayer thread, there are a LOT of dick DM's out there.

The rules should never be written with dick DMs in mind, or everything becomes monotonous or overpowered. If the DM is a dick, why not unite as players and NOT play until the DM stops being a dick? If someone is a dick, the general rule is to expell that person, and that applies for the DM as well.

indeed. if your DM is being a dick, get a new DM. you're playing so that everyone can have fun, not so that one person can go on a power trip.

Point taken. The rules shouldn't be made to counter dick DMs. I won't even go into how a lynch mob to overthrow the DMs I know only get you thrown out instead.

However, the write up and rules should at least be realistic. Seriously, what are the chances of you making that DC 20 with a mere +6 at 20th level? If you've got a decent WIS and a cloak, or Iron Will, it'd be better than the +3 you have at lvl 11. For me, it's about practicality. The original saves made it possible, and it also made sense. I always saw the soulknife as more as a willful rogue character, than an actual fighter. I think of Will as what can help you embue items, or form items. Hence the wizard, sorcerer, bards, and all the other magic stereotypes. I'd even put the soulknife in the same kind of category as the swordsage from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Again, they're a monk-like class that's got strong Ref/Will. You can even forgo the light armour proficiency for a monk unarmed attack and unarmed AC bonus progression.

The original write up of them in 3.0 had them as a rogue with just their reflex save, some sneak attack, and additional power points for the previous manifester levels as they were a PrC.

Another idea would be to have to go the way of the favoured soul and monk. 3/4 BAB and all three saves instead.

The soulknife has always been, first and foremost, a fighting class. Dropping it to 3/4 BAB just for the all good saves would be a very bad idea.

How about getting saves based on your focus? I know it's awkward, but hear me out- Skirmisher: Reflex and Will; Defender: Fortitude and Will; Striker: Fortitude and Reflex.The skirmisher is fast in body and mind, the defender is a bastion of mental fortitude and has amazing control over his own body, and the Striker is tough as nails and ready at a moment's notice for anything. Everybody would be happy, because each of the archtypes would be good at what they're aiming for.

But honestly the best way to justify the above option is just looking at what they're bad at: Skirmisher doesn't have good fortitude, Defender has slow reflexes, and the Striker likes to strike first and think later.

Then again, I'm also of the opinion that any psionic class should have a good Will save, so Ref/Will for all might be a decent option as well

No need to worry, there will be something in the rules to fix this "problem"

Originally it was the Mindblade Expertise feat which added +5 over the levels both to Attacks and to the Will-save for keeping your mindblade. We'll make sure there is something in there to make it function more or less the same.

I already have such a thing in the rules. If you read the section regarding enhancement bonuses, it notes that the total enhancement bonus also applies to Will saves made to maintain the mind blade (and absolutely nothing else). This actually makes your bonus higher than it would've been with a good Will save after 7th level or so (I'm lazy and don't know the exact math off hand).

kevin_video, I understand your concern, but one of the reasons we changed the saves is because of the different focuses. Ref/Will does not make sense for all of them. Fort/Ref makes sense for almost any fighting class. The soulknife had a good Will save for one reason, and if there's only one situational reason for a good save, it's probably not the right save. (And Defenders really should have Fort, not Ref, so we compromised.)

For the record, I think that if a mindblade actually gets Sundered (not just disarmed or winked out due to null psionics field), a soulknife ought to be stunned or at least unable to take actions (if no penalty to AC etc.) for a round or something. Having your mind literally snap ought to have *some* repercussion.

That's not likely to change. The effective immunity to sunder has been there since the 3.0 PrC. There is no real reason to change it now.

Oh, I know. I'm just saying as a flavor point, mostly. Could also be a sort of balance point (if someone with a mundane weapon had their sword shattered, they'd have to spend an action drawing a new one), but really, just a flavor point.

While I understand the flavor idea behind it, Andreas has been doing a decent job of steering me away from micro-managing rules, as it overcomplicates things, and that would be one of those instances of micro-managing.

The mundane sword-wielder wouldn't have to take a move action to draw a new sword if he had Quick Draw... just saying...

I've always thought that any class that deals with Psionics should have a good will save (sorry if I'm a broken record). The guy that just formed a weapon distilled from the energy of his mind just failed his save against that 1st level Charm Person spell? I understand that most people just look at the DC20 save to keep the mindblade formed in null psionics field, but I could honestly care less about that because I'm not likely to fight inside of one. The soulknife class implies some kind of mental strength needed to form the mindblade, so why is that the only area where this so-called "mental strength" exists? The Soulknife isn't just a fighter who picks up any sword and swings it; he is a spiritual warrior that literally lives and dies by the power of his mind.

In this case, I think that flavor has to be considered. Of course, this is also just from my take on the soulknife; take from it what you will.