MaverickWolf wrote:

Snowpaws wrote: Psionics never really had a full BAB character. Soulknives were given full BAB because their the Fighters of psionics. I don't like that but I'm sure they will keep the the full BAB in the final cut. I'm in full agreement on the two-handed version (if they keep it in, although I wish they wouldn't). You're right that the full-BAB isn't going anywhere. I'm curious where the problem with the 2-handed weapon is though. That was standard from the beginning of the soulknife. We switched it to 2d6 instead of 1d10 because we figured the 2-handed version should be a 2-handed version, period. The original 2-handed mindblade was a bastard sword. This one is a greatsword (which feels more in line with the short sword/longsword progression than the bastard sword does).

I can sum the problem up with two words: Vital Strike.

This option was designed to give the combat classes a decent punch with a standard action. The Soulknife already has a decent punch with psychic strike and Psionic Weapon. Now I'm not saying they shouldn't get Vital Strike by any means, but the greatsword option is maybe just a bit too good, bearing this in mind. To my thinking, 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 is just as logical as 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6, if not more so, and is true to the original soulknife build.

MaverickWolf wrote:

I am beginning to think that enlightened mind and hidden knowledge, while cool, need to be allotted to additional content in a separate book. There are really just too many things that have to be nailed down to balance those out as blade skills.

Agreed. I made a really cool soulknife in 3.5 that worked on par with a regular melee fighter (barely, it was a non-optimised party) by dipping a level of psion. No reason a soulknife cannot do this, really.

MaverickWolf wrote:

The other three Blade Skills on your list all have decent functions, and I'm not cutting Blade Skills out because there are 'too many options'.

Mighty Blade I'd take out for the reasons listed above. The Sidestep blade skills, well, I may be wrong but I just can't see anyone using them. I'm thinking that Form Focus aside, the blade skills that emulate or provide feats can fall by the wayside. Blade skills should be about the mindblade, after all.

Edit: And I've been thinking about what you said about the bonus feat. Thinking about it ...
#A psionic race takes levels in soulknife: they get Wild Talent, which is +2 to their power points when they aren't even going to be manifesting. Whoopie do.
#A non-psionic race takes levels in soulknife: they get Wild Talent, which makes them psionic and gives them access to psionic feats.

Clearly, the non-psionic race gets more out of Wild Talent than the psionic race. Ergo allowing a character already psionic to have a different feat isn't unfair, it's just levelling the playing field.

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I can sum the problem up with two words: Vital Strike. This option was designed to give the combat classes a decent punch with a standard action. The Soulknife already has a decent punch with psychic strike and Psionic Weapon.

In all fairness, you cannot charge and use both Psychic Strike AND Psionic Weapon in the same round, as each requires its own Move Action (at least) to charge. A Striker soulknife is generally better off just using Psychic Strike and Vital Strike every round; a Skirmisher will find Full Attack more useful than Vital Strike, and so might be more inclined to 'stagger' (perhaps a Full Attack one round, and a charge + Move the second; they are supposed to be high-mobility, after all. Alternately, perhaps a Full Attack one round, and dual-charge Psychic Strike the second). Aside from 'first round nova', a SK gets relatively little out of Psionic Weapon, compared to Psychic Strike. Not saying it's useless, but relying solely on Psychic Strike is typically a better option, especially given the fact that Psychic Strike doesn't need an Autohypnosis check to use.

A soulknife using a two-handed greatsword for 2d6 damage is not broken. A soulknife using a ONE-handed bastard sword for 2d6 damage is broken. You're looking at same-handedness size increments when you go d6->d8->d10... NOT going from a one-handed blade to a two-handed blade.

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The Sidestep blade skills, well, I may be wrong but I just can't see anyone using them.

I'm thinking, people who like to keep using Full Round Actions (for example, Full Attacks) rather than Standard Actions (for example, Vital Strike).

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#A psionic race takes levels in soulknife: they get Wild Talent, which is +2 to their power points when they aren't even going to be manifesting. Whoopie do. #A non-psionic race takes levels in soulknife: they get Wild Talent, which makes them psionic and gives them access to psionic feats. Ergo allowing a character already psionic to have a different feat isn't unfair, it's just levelling the playing field.

Heh, now you see what I was saying about the power points being useless to warriors.

I never said you were wrong - I merely said that Wild Talent was a feat in it's own right. The important thing, as you said, was it makes you psionic. If you're already psionic what real benefit do you get from it? None, unless you are a menifester.

You are right also in that you cannot recharge both psychic strike and psionic focus at the same time. But then you can get one awesome first strike in with them. I did a comparison in the playtest thread ... ouch!

I take your point on the sidestep blade skills.

Hmmm.

Vital Strike is a very good (potent) feat. About the only downside to it is that you only apply multiples of your base weapon damage; you don't get to add your Str bonus multiple times, nor bonus damage dice. Power Attack does get added multiple times, as do Weapon Specialization, Enhancement bonuses, etc.

Still, Vital Strike isn't really letting you attack multiple times. With a longsword you're adding +1d8 (4.5 average), and perhaps a few points more for Power Attack and/or Weapon Specialization. Even with a greatsword, you're adding +2d6 (7 average) and maybe a few points more (and with a greatsword with 18 Str, you could instead be getting 2d6+6 (13 average) damage by attacking a second time).

So. In the first round or so of combat, in which time you usually have to worry about 'nova' burst-damage situations... that's when feats and abilities like Vital Strike, Psychic Strike, and Psionic Weapon really shine. Over the course of a longer combat, they tend to balance out.

One possible anti-nova restriction would be to rule that you cannot use both Psychic Strike and Psionic Weapon on the same attack. You could still have both charged up, but you can only activate one at a time.

Heck, if you make activation of Psychic Strike and Psionic Weapon each a Swift Action, that would handle a LOT of the possible nova cheese, actually.

Actually I'm pretty sure it doubles just the base dice - but that is enough to make it worthwhile.

I did a comparison in the playtest thread, between a fighter, paladin, barbarian and soulknife beta and gamma (at level 10)

If all charge a target, vital strike and then hammer away ... the fighter takes 4-5 rounds to pass the beta's damage. Average damage per round on full attack is 66 for the beta, 72 for the fighter, but the fighter only pulls 43 on round 1, while the SK-beta pulls 73.5.

Obviously it depends on builds, but the first strike ability of the SK is awesome - not even the smite-o-matic paladin hitting an evil outside with a holy divine bond weapon can beat that (69 average for him on round 1)!

Of course the paladin then overhauls everything but the beta fast, but that's a very limited power, while psychic strike isn't ...

I'm no super optimiser, but the SK-beta has some huge advantages over the others, and even the gamma needs restricting in some ways.

Unfair comparison is unfair.

You have the SK's taking Greater Psionic Weapon, which accounts for 4d6 of your first-strike damage.

To be on equal footing, turn your Fighter into a Psi-Trained Fighter and give him Greater Psionic Weapon, too. Dazzling Display isn't exactly helping his damage output, after all, nor is Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, or Dodge really coming into play here. Also, did you calculate the improved damage due to the Critical feats?

Again, just quietly suggesting that if you make Psychic Strike and (Greater) Psionic Weapon require a Swift Action to activate, that would help mitigate nova cheese considerably. Or just rule that you cannot use both Psychic Strike and (Greater) Psionic Weapon on the same attack, either works.

Also, Fighter is using +2 flaming & shocking, while the SK's are using +1 flaming & shocking weapons? If you're going for single-round nova potential, give the Fighter another elemental mod like Frost.

The challenge was to compare a non-psionic fighter with a soulknife, and that's what I did. I have also made clear what damage came from which source. Without Psionic Weapon, you can see that the SK can dish an average 59.5 damage per standard action with vital strike, compared to the fighter's 43, and I've made that clear.

Sure, the fighter could take Wild Talent, Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon, but that's not actually the point of the exercise - this only ramps his damage up to 57, and the SK-Beta's 73.5 is still 16.5 well above that.

Now I'm not saying that the SK shouldn't have an awesome first-strike capability - it's clearly what he excels at, after all. But when you have to go for many rounds (beyond that at which an encounter is normally over) before the non-psionic fighter can catch up, maybe you've crossed the line from awesome to broken.

EDIT: I'm sure some optimizers could do a way better job of ramping up the fighter's damage output than me. That's cool, but remember that whatever feats he uses to achieve this are theoretically available to the SK as well.

EDIT 2: You shouldn't have to use psionic feats in a non-psionic class to keep up with the pack, really. Fortunately, in this case particularly it makes little difference. I really don't understand where this comparison is 'unfair' ... levels are the same, gear is if anything skewed in the non-psionic's direction ... what is unfair about it?

Soulknife Gamma II

OK, here is a revamped Soulknife Gamma, with some changes made.

Changes:

Removed Medium Armour Proficiency – now added as a Form Focus feat for defenders.

Adjusted psychic strike to enable total bonus damage dice to be spread between multiple mindblades.

Removed Brutal Blade, Duel Imbue, On the Run and Mighty Blade.
Brutal Blade I just couldn’t make work with Mindrazer.
Dual Imbue was broken, especially when combined with Twin Strike, plain and simple.
Mighty Blade I removed because a 2d6 greatsword option was just a step too far into the fighter’s territory. It also down-powers the half-giant striker concept.
On the Run was basically Spring Attack, now available as a form Focus feat.

Changed Twin Strike, Improved Mindarmor, Powerful Strikes and Form Focus.
Twin Strike now has a –4 to hit penalty associated with it to compensate for the fact that you can stack both mindblades with damaging enhancements and get twice the punch out of them.
Improved Mindarmor now costs an extra +1 enhancement to form.
Form Focus now includes Combat Expertise for defenders and more Missile feats.
Powerful Strikes is restricted to 6th level and above.

Added:
Charged Defense blade skill, as an extra use for that psychic strike.

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I really don't understand where this comparison is 'unfair'

My point is, you're focusing mainly on the first-round nova potential as the main argument for SK being broken, and then you optimized Sk for nova strike and didn't do the same for the others. That's like comparing a spellcaster with Quickened spell slots vs. one that does not have such prepared; no matter how you slice it, the Quickened caster will come out on top in such a comparison, even though long-term he fares much more poorly.

Now, the fact that you can stack Greater Psionic Weapon and Psychic Strike into a single attack? Sure. That's a valid point that perhaps needs to be addressed, as that certainly can cause 'nova strike' problems. That's just one possible problem between Greater Psionic Weapon and Psychic Strike, however, not one that necessitates a complete overhaul of the SK class itself.

Not saying this thread is bad, mind. It's certainly sparking ideas and raising points for consideration. Just saying a drastic overall nerf is perhaps not required.

Sparking ideas is why I did it. If everyone says of the gamma "That's crap!" but it sparks some ideas that help make the final soulknife, I'm happy.

To be honest being able to inflict a shedload of damage on round 1 is something the SK has always been able to do. That in itself is not automatically broken - the question is, how much and do they pay for that elsewhere?

For example, the rogue can kick out shedloads of damage in combat, but his AC and hit points suck. He's deadly in the flanking position, but he HAS to take down his foe quickly or he's toast.

Now look again at the comparison: Round by round, the 10th level SK is doing damage not far below that of the fighter, and about the same as the other combat classes. Now, if the typical combat encounter is around three rounds long (which Pathfinder was designed around) then the SK can be said to be overpowered if he does significantly more than the others against their specialities over three rounds, if he does more he has no significant other weaknesses compared to them. Does my logic make sense so far?

The fighter does the most round on round. He has good hit points and the best AC.
The Paladin out-hits and out-damages everyone over three rounds but only against an evil foe using his smite. Otherwise, his performance is lacklustre, and he doesn't have that many smites. In AC he is OK, and in hit points he may lag but he has his healing powers, good saves and his immunities.
The Barbarian is lacklustre in just about every area save when raging, when is damage output is merely average, and his AC isn't anything to shout about. Sounds bad? Well he has great hit points, and is hard to stop with DR and with his rage powers making him more resistant rather than buffing his damage up.
Now the soulknife. In AC and hit points they are on par with everyone else - hit points they match the fighter, AC is not far behind. Their attack bonuses are the worst, but not by a very large margin, and their round-on-round damage is pretty good. No weaknesses, no strengths, and then OMG that first hit. The gamma can just about be matched by the fighter's consistent damage output over three rounds, given that lower to-hit, but the SK-beta is simply streets ahead.

The initial damage outlay is not a problem in and of itself, but the fact that the SK is not significantly behind in any other area means we have to look at reining him back in some way. If his AC or hit points are significantly worse, for example, we can argue he needs that fast take-down. If his follow-up damage is on the poorer side, it evens up over the three rounds.

That's my reasoning, anyway - I may be wrong, I freely admit it, but if you think I am wrong please show me where I am wrong. I know that some encounters will be longer than three rounds, that some will be shorter, and the precise builds of various classes will vary - my examples are just a rough yardstick, but I think they are useful all the same.

just throwing out a random comment, as it were:
Sean K Renyolds, one of the guys who helped create 3.0/3.5 has said that Keen and Improved Crit should and were originally written to stack.

Thus, if looking for a way to do something similar with the Mindblade, i see no problem.

Lordmonkeysama wrote:

just throwing out a random comment, as it were: Sean K Renyolds, one of the guys who helped create 3.0/3.5 has said that Keen and Improved Crit should and were originally written to stack. Thus, if looking for a way to do something similar with the Mindblade, i see no problem.

Mindrazer blade skill in the Gamma stacks with Improved Crit or Keen. It does not double the threat range, but increases it from 19-20 to 18-20.

Dabbler273 wrote:

That's my reasoning, anyway - I may be wrong, I freely admit it, but if you think I am wrong please show me where I am wrong. I know that some encounters will be longer than three rounds, that some will be shorter, and the precise builds of various classes will vary - my examples are just a rough yardstick, but I think they are useful all the same.

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If all charge a target, vital strike and then hammer away. . .

You can't charge then vital strike. . .vital strike is a standard action and you can only attack on the end of a charge.

. . .That is all. . .

To clarify, I should have said 'Make a move action to close with a target' rather than charge, I apologise for that confusion of terminology (although Versatile Charge would actually allow this ...).

Wouldn't have known about any talents the soulknife get. After reading the playtesting, I stoped following it. I'm simply going to wait for the finished product for final review.

Probably very sensible of you ... me, I can't help from throwing in ideas ...

Well I don't know how much use this will be now, as debate on the Beta has moved on, but it could still stimulate a few ideas ...

Notes on the Gamma III

Amended mindarmour and mindshield: if you choose not to enhance them, thy do not reduce total enhancement. This makes them more useful at lower level where a more powerful weapon is more necessary.

Reduced Improved Mindarmour bonus to +2. This restricts the total bonus to +6, the maximum you could get with medium armour. Reduced DR for Adamantine Mindarmour to 3/- for Improved.

Psychic Strike is modified so you can split it between mindblades.

Added Charged Defence, Deadly Defence, Bind Blade, Parry. While armour is less there are more defensive abilities available.

Double Mindblade, Sidestep Attack and Sidestep Defence have no level limit. This makes more blade skills available at low level.

Added more armour qualities to Mindarmor and reduced cost of Ghost Touch to +2 from +3 for mind armour and mind shield.

Mind blade repository added, although modified.

I just want to voice my, seemingly insignificant, opinion about the Soulknife, and this project as a whole.

First, I want to say that I love psionics, and always try to implement them in all my games. I love DSP, their products, and their enthusiasm to bring Psionics to Pathfinder.

Now, I think, for backwards compatibility reasons, as well as balance reasons, the Soulknife should be a 3/4 BAB, d8 HD class. None of the core classes changed BABs, a couple got bumped up in HD (sorcerer, wizard), and they got new abilities. I think the Soulknife, as well as the other Psi classes, should adhere to this philosophy.

Sadly, if the final product of this project includes a Full BAB SK, it's simply not something I'll be supporting. However, good luck to DSP, and I'll still be using their 3.5 material for years to come.

Actually, the vast majority opinion was that the Sk NEEDED full BAB to be functional. It already had d10 hit dice, so full BAB wasn't a big step and psionics lacked a full BAB class.

Also, the soulknife needed a full re-write - the original was just way underpowered. Improving the BAB was just one step on this.

SlatzG wrote:

I just want to voice my, seemingly insignificant, opinion about the Soulknife, and this project as a whole. First, I want to say that I love psionics, and always try to implement them in all my games. I love DSP, their products, and their enthusiasm to bring Psionics to Pathfinder. Now, I think, for backwards compatibility reasons, as well as balance reasons, the Soulknife should be a 3/4 BAB, d8 HD class. None of the core classes changed BABs, a couple got bumped up in HD (sorcerer, wizard), and they got new abilities. I think the Soulknife, as well as the other Psi classes, should adhere to this philosophy. Sadly, if the final product of this project includes a Full BAB SK, it's simply not something I'll be supporting. However, good luck to DSP, and I'll still be using their 3.5 material for years to come.

funny thing, you just proposed breaking the philosophy you just said you didn't think should ever be broken.

in 3.5, the soulknife is a 3/4 BAB, d10 HD class. you just knocked them down to d8.